Sheet Cut vs Factory Cut ...Talk Among Yourselves
toothshucker
Posts: 83
Seems like a good time to debate. I'll pose the questions.
Are not all cards sheet cut?
Are sheet cut cards the same as altered/trimmed cards?
What is wrong with sheet cut cards?
Can anyone be absolutely sure that a given card is factory cut ?
Has PSA/SGC graded sheet cut cards? (Do you own any?)
Is BGS less able to diagnose altered cards than PSA or SGC?
Why does BGS grade sheet cut cards?
How does BGS/PSA/SGC/GAI distinguish between sheet cut and altered trimmed cards?
Are there differences in one TPG companies ability in diagnosing a "sheet cut" or altered cards over another? If so Why?
Are there really enough vintage sheets out there to affect the population reports or vintage card values?
If the sheet cut cards meet the specifications for size, smoothness/lack of waviness to the edges and corners are they not legitamate?
Did Topps produce a yearly "magical blade" that blessed only factory cut cards as legit?
Did Topps produce cards in a given year only in that year or did they reprint sheets at a later date?
Why does PSA grade the majority of slabbed vintage crossovers as "trimmed" when the same card cracked and resubmitted usually yields a grade?
Why does this topic yield such fierce debate? Is it the money or is the "purity" of the hobby at risk?
I don't have all the answers but lets hash some of these out. Pete
Are not all cards sheet cut?
Are sheet cut cards the same as altered/trimmed cards?
What is wrong with sheet cut cards?
Can anyone be absolutely sure that a given card is factory cut ?
Has PSA/SGC graded sheet cut cards? (Do you own any?)
Is BGS less able to diagnose altered cards than PSA or SGC?
Why does BGS grade sheet cut cards?
How does BGS/PSA/SGC/GAI distinguish between sheet cut and altered trimmed cards?
Are there differences in one TPG companies ability in diagnosing a "sheet cut" or altered cards over another? If so Why?
Are there really enough vintage sheets out there to affect the population reports or vintage card values?
If the sheet cut cards meet the specifications for size, smoothness/lack of waviness to the edges and corners are they not legitamate?
Did Topps produce a yearly "magical blade" that blessed only factory cut cards as legit?
Did Topps produce cards in a given year only in that year or did they reprint sheets at a later date?
Why does PSA grade the majority of slabbed vintage crossovers as "trimmed" when the same card cracked and resubmitted usually yields a grade?
Why does this topic yield such fierce debate? Is it the money or is the "purity" of the hobby at risk?
I don't have all the answers but lets hash some of these out. Pete
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Comments
PSA (and maybe SGC I don't know) expects that every card they grade from, say, 1971 Topps has been though the same process of cutting, packaging, and distributing. All cards should have had the same opportunity to experience problems at the factory being cut, packaged, boxed, etc. Many cards (probably most of them) had problems right out of the pack due to poor factory quality control. Cards from 1971 that are sheet cut in 2010 did not experience those same potential condition problems, so cannot be judged using the same standard.
Are not all cards sheet cut?
Can anyone be absolutely sure that a given card is factory cut ?
Has PSA/SGC graded sheet cut cards? (Do you own any?)
How does BGS/PSA/SGC/GAI distinguish between sheet cut and altered trimmed cards?
Are there differences in one TPG companies ability in diagnosing a "sheet cut" or altered cards over another? If so Why?
Did Topps produce a yearly "magical blade" that blessed only factory cut cards as legit?
Why does PSA grade the majority of slabbed vintage crossovers as "trimmed" when the same card cracked and resubmitted usually yields a grade?
Why does this topic yield such fierce debate? Is it the money or is the "purity" of the hobby at risk?
<< <i>That's a very fair legit response but begs other answers.
Are not all cards sheet cut?Yes, but most were cut, packaged, and distributed in year of issue. Modern sheet cuts are cut and sent for grading
Can anyone be absolutely sure that a given card is factory cut ?That's PSA's job
Has PSA/SGC graded sheet cut cards? (Do you own any?)I'm sure some slip through
How does BGS/PSA/SGC/GAI distinguish between sheet cut and altered trimmed cards?I don't know. That's probably another reason they don't grade sheet cuts
Are there differences in one TPG companies ability in diagnosing a "sheet cut" or altered cards over another? If so Why? Don't know
Did Topps produce a yearly "magical blade" that blessed only factory cut cards as legit?Yes, but I don't know where they keep it
Why does PSA grade the majority of slabbed vintage crossovers as "trimmed" when the same card cracked and resubmitted usually yields a grade?Because it is hard to correctly scrutinize a card while inside another holder on crossover. So if there's any question at all, they will call it trimmed. If the card is raw, they are more likely to determine characteristics of the edge that prove no trimming. "Evidence of trimming" on a crossover attempt would be more accurately called "likelihood of trimming".
Why does this topic yield such fierce debate? Is it the money or is the "purity" of the hobby at risk?I'd say both >>
Vintage sheets are extremely rare and the numbers available are infintessimal when compared to the millions and millions of factory cut cards produced in any given year. Secondly these sheets were prone to the same surface defects/wrinkles, poor coloring, print spots, poor registration problems etc... Additionally, the innate rarity of these sheets in any condition and the limited availability of them in a high grade condition (secondary to the above factors as well as standard problems of storage - bulky items, damage from humidity, surface scratches, rubber bands, push pins, garage/basement boxes...) renders them even more unusual . I think it is incorrect to assume that all existing sheets are in pristine factory production shape and there existence would harm the hobby or significantly alter pop reports- that is just not the case. How many BVG 9's exist for a given HOF/rookie card? It would be interesting to compare %'s of 9's between PSA/ BVG/SGC. Anyone want to take that up?
Also consider that more likely than not the "holy grail" of cards ,which is used as the finest example of a graded card, was likely cut from a sheet. Some issues of cards that were known to be sheet cut were initailly slabbed as well (84 Nestle).
This is why I think BGS will grade cards believed to be cut from sheets. There is just no way to be absolutely sure. So if the card meets the paramaters to be slabbed it will be slabbed- sheet cut or not. I believe (and have some in my possession- and you probably do to) that some high end vintage PSA cards have multiple features of sheet cut cards. I believe that if you sent BGS the same cards that PSA rendered "trimmed" the vast majority would also not make the cut.
Listen I am a PSA guy and looking at my vintage graded collection, I am mazed how consistent PSA has been over the years. But there are many outliers. Lets not kid ourselves. Also, I own no uncut vintage sheets.
I just try to keep a level head about things in our hobby including the contraversial topics. Pete
<< <i>This is why I think BGS will grade cards believed to be cut from sheets. There is just no way to be absolutely sure. So if the card meets the paramaters to be slabbed it will be slabbed- sheet cut or not. I believe (and have some in my possession- and you probably do to) that some high end vintage PSA cards have multiple features of sheet cut cards. I believe that if you sent BGS the same cards that PSA rendered "trimmed" the vast majority would also not make the cut. >>
Some good points, Pete.
I think that if BGS rejects a card due to trimming, it is only because the size doesn't match. Especially when you consider improved quality control on modern cards, where all cards in a set are the exact same size - if one shows up 1/16" short, they call it trimmed. As for vintage, though, I cannot see how BVG can discern a trimmed from a sheet cut. This has been discussed here before, but seems to me if they allow pre-1980 sheet cuts, they'd also allow have to allow trimmed, for the edges will look the same. And you can't use size as a determining factor in vintage - even cards from the same wax pack will vary in size. You have to analyze characteristics of the edge. So I disagree with your last sentence above - I don't think BVG can properly call a vintage edge trimmed while at the same time slabbing sheet cut cards from the same year, unless the card was noticeably undesized.
Somebody should try this for curiosities sake. Take a vintage card (say few raw ex-mint 1972 seavers- with two solid corners and two or three solid edges) trim one or two edges of the card in whatever manner is appropriate (or multiple methods) and send to BGS see what happens. Then send the same cards PSA or SGC. I would lay down some cash you would find that BGS is as tough as PSA or even tougher.
Any takers- What do you think?
Pete
<< <i>
I think that if BGS rejects a card due to trimming, it is only because the size doesn't match.. >>
I can tell you with 100% confidence that this is not true.
<< <i>Where would someone even get a sheet of uncut cards >>
Hi 60Topps
Topps used to sell them and they are around, some from the back door, others more legit ways.
They are out there in strips as well.
Steve
Actually it is true. A manager at Beckett wrote as much IIRC at net 54.
He claimed that Beckett would slab a card even if it was trimmed as long as it met the size requirement.
He also explained why Beckett used the BCCG franchise.
I don't remember his name but if you search over there or ask Leon he might be able to direct you to the thread.
Steve
Edit: I agree completely with hammered's points...you just can't compare a sheet cut card with a card that was cut in the factory 40 years ago, in terms of value, as Topps employed very primitive cutting techniques (OPC cards were actually cut using airplane wire) which is why mint or gem mint examples are so rare. And let's face it: though there is always the possibility of a "surface wrinkle" or a dinged corner on a card pulled right from a pack, the VAST MAJORITY of cards from a pack are not mint because of how they were cut (OC, MC, etc..)..A better question is has a sheet cut card ever been graded OC?? Now, that would be interesting!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have some 1984 Nestle cards that if I had graded would grade OC.
Steve
1) Sheets are all over the place but naturally more common in new. Anything prior to the late 70s is hard to come by, especially in good shape, but you'll see the older ones in the big auctions and you sometimes see the ones from the 80s in bulk in the same auctions. If you want them, you'll find them. Do an uncut search on eBay and you will find many, mostly of junk, but some for years that contain quality cards. Gretzky rookie sheets seem to come up a good bit and fetch a premium. As WinPitcher suggests, Topps used to sell them and you can still find them still in the wrappers on 80s issues. ToppsVault will sell some of the older issues every so often as well.
2) I used to think Beckett was a tougher grader but that was mostly because I was collecting 84 Donruss cards. I would sometime try to bump from PSA to BGS and a good number of my PSA 10s would come back with BGS 9 stickers on them so naturally I left them in the holder. Could have been a pride thing but who knows. I acknowledge it was stupid but at the time I was only thinking of it from a personal collection standpoint so didn't think much about long term value. I also felt they were stricter on vintage which I thought led a lot of people to not submit vintage to them. Beckett is extremely strict when it comes to print dots. But I've also submitted something that got an 8.5 with Beckett, removed from the holder and submitted to PSA and got an 8.
3) Beckett will reject on more than size requirements. They put a checklist on all raw card reviews where they specify, undersized, evidence of trimming, wavy edges, among other things.
4) All cards are sheet cut whether done in the factory or in some collector's basement which does make this somewhat of a strange semantic issue. I think PSA effectively describes what they are looking to avoid. Not grading cards that could have been originally cut by the distributor.
5) Collectors feel that both companies levels of strictness have varied at different points in history (references to the stricter period-old labels, new labels) which is frustrating and makes the idea of sending money to a third party to evaluate your cards and relying so heavily on that grade a venture that is a head-scratcher at times.
<< <i>Where would someone even get a sheet of uncut cards, I have never seen one. >>
EBay, shows, auction houses.
I"m sure I could turn a few of these into 8's or even 9's, and get them past BGS (or bvvg or bcbg or whatever they call their various divisions.)
The reason not to grade sheet cut cards are the ones that Hammered outlined.
I had a long discussion with a grader about this ones- they can tell (the ones that are actually any good) by the angle and type of cut. Different card companies used different methods for cutting up sheets, and those left tell tale signs- bevel, striations, etc as well as the tone of a cut done at the factory as opposed to decades later.
This is one of the reasons why some collectors love '50's Topps with the jagged edge- it's very tough to replicate.
not all sheets are in pristine shape- but many of them have the potential for at least some pristine cards.
There are a decent amount of uncut sheets and panels out there. Lots of complete Goudey sheets, strips of American Caramels, panels and sheets of Topps and Bowmans, even a complete press sheet of '33 Delongs.
Fortunately PSA and SGC seem very good at catching cut up versions, and BGS is pretty irrelevant in anything that was issued before the turn of this century, and likely to remain so.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<<I"m sure I could turn a few of these into 8's or even 9's, and get them past BGS...>>
<<Sheets are all over the place...>>
Again I'll play devils advocate... its fun
I think BGS differs trimmed cards from sheet cut cards a few different ways
-the card is first checked for authenticity and the usual criteria for corners, surface characteristics etc. Then the edges on a given card are compared to EACH OTHER for differences in tone quality, waviness/uneveness in cut, beveling, signs of shaving or clipping (hey, come to think of it, PSA uses the same criteria)
-if the edges are similar in smoothness, tone quality, meet accepted standards for size and are FREE of signs of beveling, signs of shaving ,waviness or clipping- they will grade it and slab it.
Not an easy task in my opinion esp considering how tough BGS grading is in general.
-if the edges do not have similar characteristics to each other, have different tonations, are wavy/uneven or have been shaved/beveled and don't meet size standards- they will not grade it. Period.
- Seems like a very objective system. There is no presumption to know with all certainty who cut the card OR how the card was cut OR to know for sure when it was cut. We all own high end vintage PSA graded cards that have tremendous variation in edges and corner appearence. Be honest now. BGS tries to avoid these subjective criteria. Also, do you believe BGS or SGC for that matter would have graded the "holy grail" card as anything other than "Authentic" ?
Is this objectivity not what you expect in a "third party" grading company?
Second point. The assumption that existing vintage sheets are abundant and in mint condition is not logical. Unlike packaged cards, they were not produced for the public distribution and are rare outliers. There limited numbers (compared to the millions if not billions of "factory" cut cards) could not be stored in ways that kept them pristine- until recently there were no accepted storage methods for these bulky items. They were also prone to the same printing defects and production problems as packaged cards. So if it is unusal to have vintage factory cut cards in mint or gem mint condition it must be orders of magnitude greater rarity to have high end sheets in existence. Again take the example of our "holy grail " card. Pete