Lack of graded MS 66 or higher 2010 Cents

WaterSport

No sure about the other series but the 2010 P&D cents (coin # 416671 and 416668) have a combined total 14 MS 66 coins of 1377 graded. While the series continues to have a low pops for MS 66 coins due to spotting, the 2010 seems to have another issue of what I call a weak strike. It appears that the raw and slabbed coins I have examined show a soft strike at noon and 6 giving a non brilliant surface under a light source. Could it be the new design or other striking adjustments causing this is why PCGS is not grading higher examples? It would be nice if Mr Willis would chime in and tell us what's going on in the grading room with 2010 cents so we know what is needed to get what appears to have been an elusive grade.

WS

erwindoc

Seems that a few more have been sent to NGC. If you look at their census, they have graded a little over 7000 2010 cents and under 50 have been graded MS67 with the bulk being Denver issued. Clearly MS66 is a trend across the major grading services.

Dan50

I'm back doing boxs of dimes, will let everyone know soon what to expect. First box is a nice bunch, just need to find some with a chance at 68FB.

Manorcourtman

Well I've bit my lip up to this point. We made the one 10-P in 66 and about half the Denver 66's as well as half the NGC P's in 67 and several of the NGC D's in 67 so I feel as though my opinion on these coins is valid. PCGS has changed it's grading standard on these coins from years past and have become so ridiculously tight I will not send another modern Lincoln to them, ever again!! We have been through 45,000+ coins at this point and have seen the best of the best. This years 65's are previous years 66 and 67's!! I truly believe the modern graders have lost their minds and it started in 2009 as far as I can tell. And they have lost some serious business imho because of their new "standards." I have now diverted my business to NGC for these Lincolns which is sad because for nearly ten years PCGS had my modern business exclusively. NGC 67's are now pulling decent money and I believe you are seeing a shift in submissions that will continue in the coming months/years. I can understand tight standards but things have spiraled out of control. I am done.

mas3387

<< <i>Well I've bit my lip up to this point. We made the one 10-P in 66 and about half the Denver 66's as well as half the NGC P's in 67 and several of the NGC D's in 67 so I feel as though my opinion on these coins is valid. PCGS has changed it's grading standard on these coins from years past and have become so ridiculously tight I will not send another modern Lincoln to them, ever again!! We have been through 45,000+ coins at this point and have seen the best of the best. This years 65's are previous years 66 and 67's!! I truly believe the modern graders have lost their minds and it started in 2009 as far as I can tell. And they have lost some serious business imho because of their new "standards." I have now diverted my business to NGC for these Lincolns which is sad because for nearly ten years PCGS had my modern business exclusively. NGC 67's are now pulling decent money and I believe you are seeing a shift in submissions that will continue in the coming months/years. I can understand tight standards but things have spiraled out of control. I am done. >>



Mind reader??



<< <i>I am done. >>

That was a great ending!!!!

We screened as much of the 2010's as well and all we have to show for it was several hundred MS65's. NOT ONE MS66 COIN !!!!

wondercoin

I feel your pain as well... believe me! But, I have a question for you guys with respect to the ultra modern Lincoln cents. Have you seen many slabbed cents from 2009 / 2010 that are developing spots / stains in the PCGS holders? I will await an answer to my question before commenting further.

Wondercoin

mas3387

After a small sampling of my Presidential P MS66RD's, from the back of a box graded a few months back, they still look like the belong in MS67RD holders

mas3387

Just received the below results. OK an MS64 maybe I missed something there but not on all the other 15 coins. These were my MS66 coins, NOT!!! So there ya go MS65RD it is.

It's not only Lincoln's that don't get the next grade up anymore either


Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 869 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 2 870 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 3 871 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 4 872 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 5 873 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 6 874 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 7 875 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 8 876 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 9 877 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 1 878 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 2 879 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS64RD
2 3 880 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 4 881 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 5 882 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 6 883 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 7 884 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD

Manorcourtman

<< <i>Just received the below results. OK an MS64 maybe I missed something there but not on all the other 15 coins. These were my MS66 coins, NOT!!! So there ya go MS65RD it is.

It's not only Lincoln's that don't get the next grade up anymore either


Line # Item # Cert # PCGS No. CoinDate Denomination Variety Country Grade
1 1 869 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 2 870 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 3 871 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 4 872 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 5 873 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 6 874 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 7 875 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 8 876 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
1 9 877 416668 2010 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 1 878 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 2 879 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS64RD
2 3 880 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 4 881 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 5 882 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 6 883 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD
2 7 884 416671 2010-D 1C Shield US MS65RD >>




MAS-

What a shame. I'm sure you have a lot of money and time invested in those coins and now you will lose that investment plus the grading fees to boot. I also rec'd grades today. All 65's and one 64. I'm sure you as I did, seriously screened the coins. I have almost 10 years of experience grading Lincolns with numerous Top Pops to my credit. Now all of a sudden I can't seem to grade them as far as PCGS is concerned. Ridiculous. Someone higher up the PCGS food chain needs to know that things have changed. I detect a serious fundamental shift in standards and I am not going to throw my money and time away ever again. Now I'm done.....probably from the boards also.

BigRick

Yup. 65's are only worth about $10 slabbed. Too bad.

wondercoin

My friends... first, why would you even consider leaving the message boards over some grading results! ? Time for a deep breathe! I would like to get some feedback from you on a couple issues if I could please.

BTW, I take my "licks" with the best of them. You win some and you lose some when you play the grading game. Today, I mostly "lost" too, but there is always tomorrow. Back to cents....

I have a serious question for MAS or Manorcourtman or anyone else...

Back in 1999 -2003 (and before the days of SF) , I remember I was minimum grading the cents MS68RD from the mint sets and getting a large % of the coins in holders as MS68RD (and even some MS69RD). Are we in agreement that the mint set (circulation strike) Lincolns of say 1999-2004 were far higher quality than the cents being screened these days from the rolls and boxes? If so, are we in agreement that the coins are basically at least 2 points worse (i.e. that MS67RD is truly the best quality for these cents with most of the top handpicked jewels being MS66RD at best)? Please address your viewpoint on the cents from today (2009-2010) as compared to the cents of 1999-2004 or even 2005. Thanks. Wondercoin

WaterSport

You would think that whatever has changed the opinion of the graders would be shared with the collecting community – especially form a customer service side to those of you who are the bulk submitters. Have any of you tried to call and ask what gives? Maybe a collective effort would squeeze the answer from PCGS. You sure as heck have a combined experience in grading as well as combined return of lower graded coins to make a case…that is unless ONCE again, PCGS gives us the quiet treatment.

WS

wondercoin

"We want consistency"

It sure looks like that is not a problem.

I still would like some comments to my last question if anyone has any thoughts.

Wondercoin

WaterSport

I think we would all agree the earlier cents were better struck and less flaws in general than what the mint is producing today. Historically, cents have been graded based on the minting process for a given year. By this, the softly struck 1920’s, and 1963 – 1968 cents, etc. it just seems that the grading detail is far more finite. I mentioned in my first post that the soft strike may be the reason for lower grades, somewhere I recently heard that the planchets going in were conical shape??????…anyone else hear or read this. It would explain why the cent is not striking up.

WS

mas3387

<< <i>Back in 1999 -2003 (and before the days of SF) , I remember I was minimum grading the cents MS68RD from the mint sets and getting a large % of the coins in holders as MS68RD (and even some MS69RD). >>




Have you tried this recently? I have and did not grade out as you stated above all I can say is we have some really nice MS67RD 1999-2004 Lincoln’s. Since we’re comparing back years to current – 2005 SF coins where by far the nicest year across the board for SF coins. Every mint set contained several MS68 quality coins and better. We have seen countless MS69’s and not to mention MS70’s graded for this year. I Recently made 2 submissions and proved to myself that things are not the way they used to be across the board……

wondercoin

Mas - No, the reason I am asking is that I have not submitted business strike Memorials in more than a year. From what I read, I assume you believe the coins are being graded about 1/2 point to a point tougher than in previous times? Is that a fair statement? Wondercoin

mas3387

I/2 a point to a point without a doubt and NOT just Lincolns. I have no problem with being tough BUT would like to see orders graded "Right"

My pile of + coins has really gotten large!!!

OH did I say + Could it be.................

illini420

Maybe some of the graders haven't realized that the obverse design of the Lincoln changed in 2010... they may be thinking they are weakly struck since they can't see the well defined pre-2010 cartoon hair.



Seems like they've tightened up significantly since their drop of the copper "color" guarantee. Wonder if they are just being ultra conservative on copper now so they don't have to pay on the "grading" guarantee. For example, if they put out tons of 67RDs and 68RDs that later turned RB, those coins would not be 67RBs or 68RBs but the acutal grade would likely drop a point or two as well (and under my reading of their grading guarantee still covered to the extent the acutal number grade drops). But if they slab them as 65RD coins and they later turn to RB, the coin probably still passes as a 65RB and no compensation would be in order since the "grade" of 65 wouldn't be changed. I would hope that's not the case, but from what I have read on the forums it seems the major tightening started about the time of the decision to drop the color guarantee.