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The PCGS Price Guide and jacked up coin prices on toned coins...
kurtdog
Posts: 1,456
By the latter I'm referring to the obvious niche market out there for the so-called "rainbows" and "monsters" going at from anywhere between 20X to 50X to who knows what else premiums over and above the prevailing prices in the PCGS Price Guide. Simply put, are those inflated prices factored into the PCGS Price Guide at the various grades when determining the next generation of prices at the various grades? Or, rather, are they somehow ignored, screened out, if you will, for the fact that the PCGS Price Guide "knows" better, i.e., that it's dealing with a superficial market, there? From what I think I understand, one component of those prices in the PCGS Price Guide is the auction sales, that's why I ask. Are those niche auction sales consciously kept out of the PCGS Price Guide, or, rather, is no conscious effort being made, there, to differentiate those niche auction sales? I hope you all understand this. Thanks.
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The people who own such coins can charge whatever they want for them, and the people who desire such coins should be prepared to pay about whatever is asked. These coins are not generics and are more like individual pieces of art (I suppose). Finding and utilizing whatever auction records of 'comparable' coins is about the best you could hope for.
JMHO of course.
<< <i>I'd be surprised if any price guide can factor those coins in.
The people who own such coins can charge whatever they want for them, and the people who desire such coins should be prepared to pay about whatever is asked. These coins are not generics and are more like individual pieces of art (I suppose). Finding and utilizing whatever auction records of 'comparable' coins is about the best you could hope for. >>
.........Couldn't have been said better
<< <i>By the latter I'm referring to the obvious niche market out there for the so-called "rainbows" and "monsters" going at from anywhere between 20X to 50X to who knows what else premiums over and above the prevailing prices in the PCGS Price Guide. Simply put, are those inflated prices factored into the PCGS Price Guide at the various grades when determining the next generation of prices at the various grades? Or, rather, are they somehow ignored, screened out, if you will, for the fact that the PCGS Price Guide "knows" better, i.e., that it's dealing with a superficial market, there? From what I think I understand, one component of those prices in the PCGS Price Guide is the auction sales, that's why I ask. Are those niche auction sales consciously kept out of the PCGS Price Guide, or, rather, is no conscious effort being made, there, to differentiate those niche auction sales? I hope you all understand this. Thanks. >>
Is the niche market for wildly toned Morgans any more superficial than those for coins with designations like FBL Franklin halves, FH Standing Liberty quarters, or FSB Mercury dimes? Not really. How about MS70/PR70 moderns vs. similar coins graded 69? All of these designations simply reflect the power of marketing in the business end of the hobby. If the coins are really overpriced, collectors will vote with their wallets.
Eventually, a toning designation may appear to help collectors figure out pricing of these Morgans, but for now it's the Wild West and the only things collectors can do are take note of dealer prices (and what sells) and auction results.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Only then will you eventually get the hang of it.
someone who wears a mullet?
Camelot
<< <i>This issue is easy. Before you can accurately determine the value of beautifully toned coins, each being unique, you must first lose a pile of money buying and selling them.
Only then will you eventually get the hang of it. >>
Oh great---now you tell me this!
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
before we learned what we needed to know about buying and selling toned
coins. There is much that is subtle that only experience can teach.
Camelot
Only then will you eventually get the hang of it.
Yep.
rainbowroosie April 1, 2003
<< <i>This issue is easy. Before you can accurately determine the value of beautifully toned coins, each being unique, you must first lose a pile of money buying and selling them.
Only then will you eventually get the hang of it. >>
Haha hit the nail on the head
<< <i>Is the niche market for wildly toned Morgans any more superficial than those for coins with designations like FBL Franklin halves, FH Standing Liberty quarters, or FSB Mercury dimes? Not really. >>
Oh, but it is. The FBLs, FSBs, and FHs all go to the strike of the coin and/or condition of the die (i.e., they relate directly to the design elements and minting of the coin). In any event, so as not to get too side-tracked, every single one of those attributes are consciously differentiated from the general population, right in the PCGS Price Guide.
<< <i>Yes I do think they influence the price guides but the majority of the coins are common enough that they sell frequently so the influence of the "toners" is minimized. >>
Now this is directly on-point; thanks. Anybody else?
<< <i>This issue is easy. Before you can accurately determine the value of beautifully toned coins, each being unique, you must first lose a pile of money buying and selling them.
Only then will you eventually get the hang of it. >>
But the question is, how does the price guide editor know that a sale was a Rainbow Toner and not raise the price guide? --Jerry
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
i don't think it takes much in the way of experience to price the really nice toned coins, Brian, you took a former classic car aficionado under you wing several years ago and it sure didn't take him long. the formula is simple, just like the entire coin market-----buy low and sell high. buy nicely toned coins at a low/reasonable price, slap a tidy increase on the price and be positioned to hold till you find the right buyer. certainly it helps to already be involved in coins but i don't really see it as a pre-requisite.
a friend of mine told me long ago a simple piece of supervisory wisdom-----It's easier to take someone who can manage people and teach them a specific business than it is to take someone who knows a certain business and teach them how to manage people. the extrapolation on that principal to the tined coin market isn't a big leap. and i would add that despite what you guys would have us believe, it isn't necessary to lose a pile of money buying and selling them in order to succeed.
i'm saddened by the fact of that being your experience. all things considered, i'd say that loss was only a temproary thing.
<< <i>Can you say BUBBLE......? >>
Wishful thinking?
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>The TPG's have in all intent and purpose stopped slabbing wild color. >>
Not according to PQPeace.
<< <i>
<< <i>The TPG's have in all intent and purpose stopped slabbing wild color. >>
Not according to PQPeace.
Good point. I should of said unless it's 110% all there. Anything that could ever raise an eyebrow for liablity sake is having a much tougher time getting slabbed. Being that Bryan's collection was pretty well known didn't hurt as well/ I'm going to edit my post for clarification. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Do fantastically toned coins have dates? I always wondered since I never seen that to be much of a factor. >>
Yes and those tend to trade at high levels too.......MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Then again maybe that's why it's so out of wack in most cases...
I have never seen 50X price guide on any coin, norm is 3 to 5 times price guide on killer color...
Take these 1926-S 50C Oregon MS68 as a interesting case, Price Guide is at $8,500.00
First one sold for $4K+, Half of Guide and the second one sold for 27K+ but still only 3x guide...
Currently Listed: Nothing
Take Care, Dave
Bassano Oregon 26-S in PCGS 68CAC
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Take them in to your local brick & mortar dealer and see what kind of offers you get.
And, then see what he sells them for !
Price guides, including PCGS's, refer to average coins
Coins that are uniquely ugly, even if technically at the grade, will sell for something less than price guide, and uniquely beautiful coins will sell for more, maybe multiples of "sheet"
however, I don't think auctions of such coins should get, or in fact do get, factored into revisions of price guide prices.
Take them in to your local brick & mortar dealer and see what kind of offers you get. >>
And, then see what he sells them for !
Yeah, that "take them to local coin shop" comment is always real useful. While you're at it, take your classic car to the local used car lot and see the offers, take your antique jewelry or watch to the mall jeweler and see the offers, take your golden era comics to the local pawn shop and see the offers.
THATS NOT THE MARKET FOR THE GOODS so beating the "sell for CASH NOW" drum doesn't make a lot of sense.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Guides are merely guides.
************************************************
As Baley pointed out- every coin is unique
Well, perhaps unique to a point. Coins are worth what collectors are willing to pay for them
************************************************
The Oregon Trail Commems pictured really need to be seen in hand to even begin a discussion on the valuation associated with these two examples.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>I have never seen 50X price guide on any coin, norm is 3 to 5 times price guide on killer color... >>
Yeah, guilty as charged. In my defense, I was only repeating what I had thought I had heard. Those claims are extreme, though, as you point out...
<< <i>Take these 1926-S 50C Oregon MS68 as a interesting case, Price Guide is at $8,500.00
First one sold for $4K+, Half of Guide and the second one sold for 27K+ but still only 3x guide...
<pictures omitted so as to conserve bandwidth> >>
Interesting, indeed. Just a question. This might help clear some things up. When you say, Price Guide $8500 on a MS68, is that a technical MS68, or a market MS68? I'd think it's a market MS68, as, that's what these TPGs do, they market grade. If that's correct, let's get back to my original question, whether those auction prices on toned coins are factored into the Price Guide at the various grade levels. I'd think one would have to answer, they are. Why? Because, toning, now (by way of "eye appeal"), is a legitimate market grading criteria. ANA cleared the way for that one. In fact, the same can be said, now, of strike (again, by way of "eye appeal"). Bottom line? IMHO, anyway, those auctions are most definitely factored into the Price Guide (which, again, is a market, not a technical guide). I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing, now, either...
The price guide cannot account for color at all. In general, coins that have exceptional characteristics (cameo, strike, color, red copper, eye appeal) will always carry a premium, regardless of price guides. The grading services try to reflect some of these extraordinary characteristics with special designations (CAM, DMPL, FBL, FH, *, RB, RD, +) but in the end, it's always the coin itself that matters.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>I have paid 50x for an outstanding color coin, but that is an extreme case. The coin in question was an 1890-P Morgan, PCGS MS64. At the time it was about $110 in the greysheet. I paid more than $5500 for an outrageously colored example. There were many coins that I paid more than 10x for, typically common date Morgans in grades of 65-66-67. Every one of them was worth it. It helped that I spent a great deal of time studying the science of color, and understood what I was looking at. When I sold my set, I was not only able to recoup the outrageous prices that I paid, but even came out ahead.
The price guide cannot account for color at all. In general, coins that have exceptional characteristics (cameo, strike, color, red copper, eye appeal) will always carry a premium, regardless of price guides. The grading services try to reflect some of these extraordinary characteristics with special designations (CAM, DMPL, FBL, FH, *, RB, RD, +) but in the end, it's always the coin itself that matters.
Best,
Sunnywood >>
Hmmm, thanks, Sunnywood. I stand corrected, again...
PS: That's twice in one day, now. I don't think I can stand much more of that.
PPS: Hear you loud and clear, BTW. Going at 50X price guides, these are indeed in a universe of their own...
<< <i>I agree rainbows shmainbows collect real coins >>
And, in your opinion, what is a real coin?
peacockcoins
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd be surprised if any price guide can factor those coins in.
The people who own such coins can charge whatever they want for them, and the people who desire such coins should be prepared to pay about whatever is asked. These coins are not generics and are more like individual pieces of art (I suppose). Finding and utilizing whatever auction records of 'comparable' coins is about the best you could hope for. >>
.........Couldn't have been said better >>
Very astute answer. The majority are just not going to induce ant sort of emotional extreme. You get the emotions involved, and prices can get crazy.
When I sold my best coins, back around 2006, I did not have to negotiate any prices. I knew some well heeled collectors whom I knew would jump at the chance to get the coins.
The bulk went to just 2 collectors. That was well over 60 coins in 65 fbl and 66 fbl.
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree rainbows shmainbows collect real coins >>
And, in your opinion, what is a real coin? >>
Well, seeing as how you had just opened that door, I’ll at least take a try at it...
At the outset, let me just say, some of you aren't particularly going to like this, that's almost a foregone conclusion, but, joecopper has a real point. If I can elaborate on it, it's that, if you're collecting these "rainbow" or "monster" toned coins, realize it, you're not appreciating those as the hobby contemplates. I'd rather liken what you're appreciating to an horologist (that's, watches, folks, another of my “bad habits”...just ask the Wifey) collecting for the sake, primarily, of the “jewelry” aspect of the case or strap, while the guts of that hobby, the appreciation of the quality and craftsmanship that went into that movement, or, a.k.a., those "works," somehow elude, or are secondary to him or her. Now, just hang in, there, let me articulate that, further, and explain (IMHO, anyway...there, there’s my diplomatic disclaimer) why that's necessarily so.
Think of a coin, any coin, you’re the engraver. You’re an artist, at bottom. You have a design in your mind. You have an “expression” you want to get across in that design. How do you do that? How does any artist do that? They do it principally through the use of two artistic elements: detail and color.
Trough the use of those two techniques, alone, an artist can and will consciously attempt to control your eye movement through that artwork, achieving the expression and feeling he intends in you when you look upon the artwork. And, you had thought that just happened by accident, huh? Not hardly. Not when you’re dealing with a real artist. Certainly not when you’re dealing with a master engraver. Look at a high gem coin and be conscious this time around of where your eye goes to, and how it moves through that coin. Just make sure the coin is a “white,” and, the less distracting the foreign marks on it, the better. You’ll find, every time, if you’re paying attention, your eye goes straight to that detail. That’s no accident. It’s, rather, exactly what that engraver had planned.
Now, you’re ready to think of this: color. It’s the one element that engraver didn’t have, isn’t it? His expression was limited to his competency in his use of detail, alone.
Now, take that gem “white” your eye had been going through, and put a little dot of color on it, anywhere, and notice how your eye now goes straight to that, and how powerful and “magnetic” that attraction is. Now, color it further, and notice how your eye now dances around it, following that color. Now, “rainbow” or “monster” color it, and notice how you had just lost every eye movement connected with the original expression as intended by that engraver in that, if I may, “work of art.” Notice, also, how, while it’s indeed still one in the same coin, it’s a vastly different expression, a vastly different work of art, with that color in there. Then, ask yourself, not whether you like it, or whether it’s appealing to your discriminating eye, but whether you’re appreciating that engraver’s expression through the use of that only artistic technique he had available to him when he had set out to create that intended expression, or, whether, rather, you’re appreciating something entirely collateral to that? Then, realize, you’re looking at a colorized version of a classic black and white film, that’s what that’s tantamount to.
Bottom line, I like my “Maltese Falcon” in black and white, while you may prefer the colorized adaptation...that’s fine. The film critic may side with me; he or she, too, may want to see that producer’s handiwork coming across through his or her judicious use of the techniques of lighting and shading, without the assist of color...but, who cares about that? Nature is an artist, too. It’s just that, in my view, and perhaps the view of one or two of the others, here, She distracts from the original expression of that engraver just a little too much for comfort, sometimes.
So...enjoy your rainbow and monster toned coins. Understand, we don’t hate them. If anything, we just don’t happen to like them a lot.
PS: That last one was a joke, folks...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I agree rainbows shmainbows collect real coins >>
And, in your opinion, what is a real coin? >>
Well, seeing as how you had just opened that door, I’ll at least take a try at it...
At the outset, let me just say, some of you aren't particularly going to like this, that's almost a foregone conclusion, but, joecopper has a real point. If I can elaborate on it, it's that, if you're collecting these "rainbow" or "monster" toned coins, realize it, you're not appreciating those as the hobby contemplates. I'd rather liken what you're appreciating to an horologist (that's, watches, folks, another of my “bad habits”...just ask the Wifey) collecting for the sake, primarily, of the “jewelry” aspect of the case or strap, while the guts of that hobby, the appreciation of the quality and craftsmanship that went into that movement, or, a.k.a., those "works," somehow elude, or are secondary to him or her. Now, just hang in, there, let me articulate that, further, and explain (IMHO, anyway...there, there’s my diplomatic disclaimer) why that's necessarily so.
Think of a coin, any coin, you’re the engraver. You’re an artist, at bottom. You have a design in your mind. You have an “expression” you want to get across in that design. How do you do that? How does any artist do that? They do it principally through the use of two artistic elements: detail and color.
Trough the use of those two techniques, alone, an artist can and will consciously attempt to control your eye movement through that artwork, achieving the expression and feeling he intends in you when you look upon the artwork. And, you had thought that just happened by accident, huh? Not hardly. Not when you’re dealing with a real artist. Certainly not when you’re dealing with a master engraver. Look at a high gem coin and be conscious this time around of where your eye goes to, and how it moves through that coin. Just make sure the coin is a “white,” and, the less distracting the foreign marks on it, the better. You’ll find, every time, if you’re paying attention, your eye goes straight to that detail. That’s no accident. It’s, rather, exactly what that engraver had planned.
Now, you’re ready to think of this: color. It’s the one element that engraver didn’t have, isn’t it? His expression was limited to his competency in his use of detail, alone.
Now, take that gem “white” your eye had been going through, and put a little dot of color on it, anywhere, and notice how your eye now goes straight to that, and how powerful and “magnetic” that attraction is. Now, color it further, and notice how your eye now dances around it, following that color. Now, “rainbow” or “monster” color it, and notice how you had just lost every eye movement connected with the original expression as intended by that engraver in that, if I may, “work of art.” Notice, also, how, while it’s indeed still one in the same coin, it’s a vastly different expression, a vastly different work of art, with that color in there. Then, ask yourself, not whether you like it, or whether it’s appealing to your discriminating eye, but whether you’re appreciating that engraver’s expression through the use of that only artistic technique he had available to him when he had set out to create that intended expression, or, whether, rather, you’re appreciating something entirely collateral to that? Then, realize, you’re looking at a colorized version of a classic black and white film, that’s what that’s tantamount to.
Bottom line, I like my “Maltese Falcon” in black and white, while you may prefer the colorized adaptation...that’s fine. The film critic may side with me; he or she, too, may want to see that producer’s handiwork coming across through his or her judicious use of the techniques of lighting and shading, without the assist of color...but, who cares about that? Nature is an artist, too. It’s just that, in my view, and perhaps the view of one or two of the others, here, She distracts from the original expression of that engraver just a little too much for comfort, sometimes.
So...enjoy your rainbow and monster toned coins. Understand, we don’t hate them. If anything, we just don’t happen to like them a lot.
PS: That last one was a joke, folks...
The Windsor chair is appreciated by antique and furniture collectors for it's symmetry and simplicity, you can buy an old one that has been stripped or repainted for $300-400, or you can buy one in original surface for $3K and up, the sky's the limit depending on the maker and provenance. Does the owner of the painted example stop looking at the lines of the chair? I don't, I appreciate it all, if I just wanted to appreciate the color and surface I could buy old blocks of wood, but I don't, nor does anyone I know about. It's the same with coins. If I wanted to appreciate colored silver I could buy bars of bullion with color and the heck with the design. As a toned collector, and I can only speak for myself, I have it all, the best examples I can afford of wonderful designs, and the pleasure of observing what time and surroundings have done to a piece of history. I can appreciate a white coin if the luster, or strike is exceptional, but to own more than a few would be very boring.
Edited for spelling.
I appreciate the design element of every coin I collect. Some more then others. However, my senses are totally stimulated when color is part of the equation. So given the choice between the same coin in vanilla or one with fanastic color I will choose the latter everytime. Unfortunately for me there is heavy pressure on this market and I have to pay up for my tastes.
Color, reeled me into this hobby. To be honest, If coins did not come toned I doubt they would hold my interest. With that being said, they do so I'm now captivated by the hobby add I've read scores of numismatic books I would have not otherwise knew existed. I just finished reading Numistmatic Art in America for the second time as I wanted to try to get into the designers/engravers head. I want to know my hobby and my coins better.
I'm sure if the Christian Gobrecht's, James Longacre's and George Morgan's where alive today to see some of their original works transformed with the introduction of color with the help of mother nature or by commen storage methods they would be more then pleased. They may even step up to the plate at auction and buy a rainbow or monster colored coin.
I'm a designer by trade.
All the best, MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Anyway, seriously, I do hear and respect your side of this issue, and I do appreciate your being big enough to hear and respect the other side, as well. I'd note that's a formula for success in any discussion forum, too, but, then, I think I lectured enough, here. I'm done with that. Going to get me some good sleep, tonight, instead. You and all take care.
<< <i>Yellowkid and MJ, do you want to hear something funny? I had to read your replies over several times before it had finally dawned on me, "Hey, these guys aren't flaming me!" Guilty conscious and all I guess for having taken up your and everybody else's time, here, with that rant. Although, I do have to say, it did feel kind of good getting that off my chest...
Anyway, seriously, I do hear and respect your side of this issue, and I do appreciate your being big enough to hear and respect the other side, as well. I'd note that's a formula for success in any discussion forum, too, but, then, I think I lectured enough, here. I'm done with that. Going to get me some good sleep, tonight, instead. You and all take care.
You would be correct my friend. No flames intended and just a view from the other side of the street. Your prose was compelling and well stated but I'm still not buying it
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Your prose was compelling and well stated but I'm still not buying it
Well, guess what, I can buy that!
PS: Had to come back and edit my last for spelling, I'm such a damn perfectionist!
When I bid off, more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I bid it up, and spit it out.
I faced it all, and I stood tall;
And bid it, my way!
How's that for a closing thought? Have to get to work...