Options
1909 MPL new die listing (updated)
kevinj
Posts: 972 ✭✭✭
I was able to examine Charmy and Chris’s coin side by side, below is what I found.
They are both from the same obverse and reverse working dies.
The obverse matches Albrecht #3, the reverse is not listed in Albrecht.
The below listed diagnostics were found on both coins using a 10x loupe.
Besides the die scratches listed below, I found many minute die scratches on the obverse in the field in front of the head. Some of these were on one coin, but not the other, and could have been used for die state definition. But as they were only visible using 60x, and not 10x, I chose not to list as the average collector would not be able to identify the differences.
Albrecht Reverse #B most likely is paired with Albrecht Obverse #2. Albrecht lists Obverse #3, but no Reverse #C. For Obverse #3, Albrecht lists the die scratches in front of the nose.
I still believe that this Obverse #2/Reverse #2 die pair was only used for a small percentage of the 1909P matte proofs as this is the first two examined after examining many different 1909P matte proofs.
I believe that after 852 1909Ps were struck on August 17th, and 810 on August 26th, that the first obverse and reverse die was retired. We know no Lincoln cent matte proofs were struck in September through the end of November. Then in December we have 500 struck on December 8th and 180 struck on December 24th. These were most likely struck to fill holiday orders and collectors who waited till the end of the year to order. Albrecht #2 obverse has a very visible die crack from the rim to the bust, and would have most likely been pulled early when noticed. The total 1909P Lincoln cent matte proofs struck was 2,342. If you assume Obverse #1/Reverse #1 was used for August, that would be 1662 coins or 70% of the total. If you assume Obverse #2/Reverse #2 was used for the December production, that would be 680 coins or 30% of the total. Given the relative rarity of Obverse #2/Reverse #2, the above conclusions are within reason.
I would like to thank Charmy and Chris for sending me there coins to study and to be able to bring everyone this analysis.
When I get the photos back, I will update this with them.
Kevin
1909 Obverse #2: Paired with 1909 Reverse #2
Cross Reference: Albrecht Obverse 3
Diagonal die scratch from the field above the G to the left side of the O of GOD.
Small vertical die scratch from the top of O of GOD down into the O.
Die die scratch from left side of the horizontal bar of the T of LIBERTY through the R.
Long die scratch from the bust up through the 19 of the date into the field in front of the chin.
Die scratch from the top of the 1 up through the field in front of the chin.
Small die scratch from the bottom of the nose.
Approximately 20 vertical die scratches to the far right of the nose. Located on the horizontal plane
between the tip of the nose and eyebrow and on the vertical plane below the ST of TRUST.
1909 Reverse #2: Paired with 1909 Obverse #2
Cross Reference: None
Die scratch from M of UNUM left into the field above E of ONE.
Horizontal die scratch in field to the right of the C of CENT.
Die scratch from the center of E to the N of CENT.
Die scratch through the middle of UN of UNITED.
Small over large TE of UNITED, ST of STATES, F of AMERICA, and and ME of AMERICA.
Die scratch through the lower TAT of STATES.
Die chip next to the rim at 3'oclock.
They are both from the same obverse and reverse working dies.
The obverse matches Albrecht #3, the reverse is not listed in Albrecht.
The below listed diagnostics were found on both coins using a 10x loupe.
Besides the die scratches listed below, I found many minute die scratches on the obverse in the field in front of the head. Some of these were on one coin, but not the other, and could have been used for die state definition. But as they were only visible using 60x, and not 10x, I chose not to list as the average collector would not be able to identify the differences.
Albrecht Reverse #B most likely is paired with Albrecht Obverse #2. Albrecht lists Obverse #3, but no Reverse #C. For Obverse #3, Albrecht lists the die scratches in front of the nose.
I still believe that this Obverse #2/Reverse #2 die pair was only used for a small percentage of the 1909P matte proofs as this is the first two examined after examining many different 1909P matte proofs.
I believe that after 852 1909Ps were struck on August 17th, and 810 on August 26th, that the first obverse and reverse die was retired. We know no Lincoln cent matte proofs were struck in September through the end of November. Then in December we have 500 struck on December 8th and 180 struck on December 24th. These were most likely struck to fill holiday orders and collectors who waited till the end of the year to order. Albrecht #2 obverse has a very visible die crack from the rim to the bust, and would have most likely been pulled early when noticed. The total 1909P Lincoln cent matte proofs struck was 2,342. If you assume Obverse #1/Reverse #1 was used for August, that would be 1662 coins or 70% of the total. If you assume Obverse #2/Reverse #2 was used for the December production, that would be 680 coins or 30% of the total. Given the relative rarity of Obverse #2/Reverse #2, the above conclusions are within reason.
I would like to thank Charmy and Chris for sending me there coins to study and to be able to bring everyone this analysis.
When I get the photos back, I will update this with them.
Kevin
1909 Obverse #2: Paired with 1909 Reverse #2
Cross Reference: Albrecht Obverse 3
Diagonal die scratch from the field above the G to the left side of the O of GOD.
Small vertical die scratch from the top of O of GOD down into the O.
Die die scratch from left side of the horizontal bar of the T of LIBERTY through the R.
Long die scratch from the bust up through the 19 of the date into the field in front of the chin.
Die scratch from the top of the 1 up through the field in front of the chin.
Small die scratch from the bottom of the nose.
Approximately 20 vertical die scratches to the far right of the nose. Located on the horizontal plane
between the tip of the nose and eyebrow and on the vertical plane below the ST of TRUST.
1909 Reverse #2: Paired with 1909 Obverse #2
Cross Reference: None
Die scratch from M of UNUM left into the field above E of ONE.
Horizontal die scratch in field to the right of the C of CENT.
Die scratch from the center of E to the N of CENT.
Die scratch through the middle of UN of UNITED.
Small over large TE of UNITED, ST of STATES, F of AMERICA, and and ME of AMERICA.
Die scratch through the lower TAT of STATES.
Die chip next to the rim at 3'oclock.
Kevin J Flynn
0
Comments
Thanks Kevin,
Nice report on the coins!
https://thepennylady.com/
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
What do you mean, Matt?
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Thanks for the update! Congratulations on expanding our understanding of these coins!
Is it safe to say that Albrecht already identified this variety, with the net new news being the the reverse die description? As such, is this really a new discovery, or simply more information on a previously described variety (Kevin, you strike me as someone who chooses your words carefully, and perhaps that's what you're alluding to by using the word "listing" rather than "pair" or "discovery" in the title)?
Just wondering...Mike
<< <i>Kevin,
Thanks for the update! Congratulations on expanding our understanding of these coins!
Is it safe to say that Albrecht already identified this variety, with the net new news being the the reverse die description? As such, is this really a new discovery, or simply more information on a previously described variety (Kevin, you strike me as someone who chooses your words carefully, and perhaps that's what you're alluding to by using the word "listing" rather than "pair" or "discovery" in the title)?
Just wondering...Mike >>
Hi Mike,
You are correct in that Albrecht listed this obverse as Obverse #3. Albrecht did not list a reverse and the two reverses
Albrecht does list (#A and #B) do not match the reverse here.
My heading was a repeat of Brian's previous title to let people know there was an update,
but also in listing it as new, as it is new to my book and the verified listings for my book.
It would be fair to say that the reverse has never before been listed to my knowledge, therefore qualify as a new ("discovery").
It would be correct to say that Albrecht had identified this obverse.
It would also be fair to say that we have added new diagnostics (i.e. more information) for the obverse which were not previously listed.
In previous books, I used to list the discoverer if I knew when it was first published, but then I would get hate mail
from people claiming they discovered the coin.
I have chosen to list the submitter for my books, I stay away from calling something a discovery coin where ever possible, or listing
someone as the discoverer.
For me it is about the coins and sharing information with others.
I was blown away when I first saw this coin, Brian can attest to my 'holy .....' as after 17 years of looking, it was the first time
I examined an 1909P Matte obverse that was different that Obverse #1 with the die crack from the back of the jacket.
Thanks
Kevin
<< <i>Kevin,
Thanks for the update! Congratulations on expanding our understanding of these coins!
Is it safe to say that Albrecht already identified this variety, with the net new news being the the reverse die description? As such, is this really a new discovery, or simply more information on a previously described variety (Kevin, you strike me as someone who chooses your words carefully, and perhaps that's what you're alluding to by using the word "listing" rather than "pair" or "discovery" in the title)?
Just wondering...Mike >>
We discussed the merits of renumbering existing variety numbers over on the U.S. Coin Forum:
link
TD
I too want to congratulate you for providing us with clear explanations and diagnostics for this coin. I think it is reasonable to assume the obverse is Albrecht's obverse 3 and that probably Albrecht's obverse 2 with the very visable die crack was discovered early and replaced with this obverse. It also now seems reasonable to me to assume that Albrecht's obverse 1 which was used originally on all the 1909VDB MPL's was probably also used on the majority of the 1909 MPL's as well. As far as the reverses for the 1909 MPL's it does seem from what you say that Albrecht's reverse A was used for the majority of the 1909 MPL's and was paired with obverse 1. When obverse 2 was started, probably in early December it might have then been paired with Albrecht's reverse B and at sometime later, perhaps when Albrecht's obverse 2 with the die crack was taken out of service a NEW reverse was used which is now the newly identified reverse for the 1909 MPL. It is also possible that the so called Albrecht obverse 2 and the so called Albrecht reverse B do not exist and the pictures are just late die states of known dies.
As the known diagnostics for MPL's evolve overtime, and as your updates to the Matte Proof Lincoln book is published, I can see the hobby begin to refer to the MPL diagnostics as Flynn obverse 1 or Flynn reverse B, etc. Thanks for your hard work.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
WS
So is this same reverse also seen on Business strikes......?
<< <i>Kevin,
I too want to congratulate you for providing us with clear explanations and diagnostics for this coin. I think it is reasonable to assume the obverse is Albrecht's obverse 3 and that probably Albrecht's obverse 2 with the very visable die crack was discovered early and replaced with this obverse. It also now seems reasonable to me to assume that Albrecht's obverse 1 which was used originally on all the 1909VDB MPL's was probably also used on the majority of the 1909 MPL's as well. As far as the reverses for the 1909 MPL's it does seem from what you say that Albrecht's reverse A was used for the majority of the 1909 MPL's and was paired with obverse 1. When obverse 2 was started, probably in early December it might have then been paired with Albrecht's reverse B and at sometime later, perhaps when Albrecht's obverse 2 with the die crack was taken out of service a NEW reverse was used which is now the newly identified reverse for the 1909 MPL. It is also possible that the so called Albrecht obverse 2 and the so called Albrecht reverse B do not exist and the pictures are just late die states of known dies.
As the known diagnostics for MPL's evolve overtime, and as your updates to the Matte Proof Lincoln book is published, I can see the hobby begin to refer to the MPL diagnostics as Flynn obverse 1 or Flynn reverse B, etc. Thanks for your hard work.
Steve
Hey Steve,
Thanks, can't wait someday to update the book, will be including the Buff mattes also
Kevin
<< <i>So is this same reverse also seen on Business strikes......? >>
Have not seen this reverse on the business strike
Kevin
Thank you for the response, I'll post one when I get to the office.
Edited to add: I will post a Business strike for your opinion, it has several of the same die characteristics of Soty's coin......
Eric