No more undisclosed sets in top five!

Swan

Since we are changing set compositions and evolving as we grow, I propose that we eliminate the option of undisclosure for the top five sets in any catagory. The set owners from #6 on down may have the option to select whether their sets should be viewed or not. The top five must numismatically "undress" so the public may view their collection. I realize that my set is now blacked out, but I don't see why any collector that reached the top group would not want to share their effort with other collectors. Most would. What are your thoughts?

BNE

I agree. What's the sense of going to the trouble of bragging if one doesn't really know what you're bragging about? It's SUCH a tease. . . .

But Swan, you say you can't imagine why someone wouldn't want to disclose, yet you say you've blacked out your set. Out of curiosity, what was your rationale?

merz2

I've often wondered what was the sense of putting your set in the Registry if your going to prevent people from seeing it? It doesn't make sense some how.

jcping

There are PROs and CONs to un-blackout the top five coin collections in each category. Once the information is leaked out and the collection has not been "completed," (The "completed" definition is "cannot be upgraded further.") dealers could drive up the price and make it un-reasonable. Also, in the auctions, someone will compete with you and drive up the price. They also want the coin to sell it to you.

Also, for some series, everybody wants the same coins so that when one coin is available in the market, dealers always tell me "not to tell anyone that I sold you the coin; I could let you happy and piss off other 50 guys."

Nevertheless, I personally would like to see top 5 gets un-blackout. This is just my 2c.

mercurynut

Because of the competitive nature of the registry sets, if someone wants there privacy thats ok UNTIL they have a 100% complete set! At that point it makes no sense at all, and no pedagree should be given unless everyone can see the "finest sets"

dbldie55

Another problem with the undisclosed sets is if you are competitive in a set, you have no idea what you are up against. Hard to compete on a coin by coin basis when you are running "blind".

I do think that a retired set still listed in the All Time Finest should be open. Hard to show off a Finest set if no one can see it.

khayse

Well, given that this is the United States, I say limit people as
little as possible.

That said I can't think of a reason why not to show everything in a set once
it's retired.

If the set is active (even if it's 100% complete) I say let the person
black it out if he wants to. It's his perogative. If you want to
compare, look at your respective Set Ratings. If you know the
series you should know what the cheapest upgrade path is.
You should be able to figure out what the easiest way to
get to where the other guy is.

I also think it can be a good idea to have people you are competing
against not know which coins you need. I think it's obvious how
that can work against you.

Just my opinion,
-Keith H

braddick

I agree that the set owner has should have the option of disclosure or not. I can understand if you're way up there and all you need is an MS69 Sac or an MS67 clad Ike and others know it, the price may be driven up.

On the other hand! I sure would like to know what is behind the curtain!

wondercoin

IMHO, competing at the very top levels in popular sets in the Registy is no different than competing in the World Series of Poker. You don't turn your cards over in the middle of the hand (unless you chose to) and likewise, you shouldn't expose your set to anyone. Now, consider these caveats (my own opinion):

1. If you are not competing for a top spot then by all means show your set. For example, if I post my (work in progress) Commem set I would have no problem exposing it. I will never be #1 and I could care less what people think of my set.

2. If you are competing for the #1 spot, never let anyone know what you have in your set other than perhaps a trusted dealer or coin friends. You gain ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and have everything to lose as dealers could "hold you hostage" for a coin you need.

3. When you achieve #1 and are finished the pursuit, then by all means expose the set. Especially if you plan on selling the set in the near future.

If you really think about this, you will not be able to give me a single logical reason why anyone would reveal the coins they need if they are in a hot pursuit for #1. Yes, it would be nice for all the on lookers to see (which is why they show the poker hands on TV while the players battle it out). There will be time enough for gloating when the "game" is OVER. Wondercoin

wondercoin

IMHO, competing at the very top levels in popular sets in the Registy is no different than competing in the World Series of Poker. You don't turn your cards over in the middle of the hand (unless you chose to) and likewise, you shouldn't expose your set to anyone. Now, consider these caveats (my own opinion):

1. If you are not competing for a top spot then by all means show your set. For example, if I post my (work in progress) Commem set I would have no problem exposing it. I will never be #1 and I could care less what people think of my set.

2. If you are competing for the #1 spot, never let anyone know what you have in your set other than perhaps a trusted dealer or coin friends. You gain ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and have everything to lose as dealers could "hold you hostage" for a coin you need.

3. When you achieve #1 and are finished the pursuit, then by all means expose the set. Especially if you plan on selling the set in the near future.

If you really think about this, you will not be able to give me a single logical reason why anyone would reveal the coins they need if they are in a hot pursuit for #1. Yes, it would be nice for all the on lookers to see (which is why they show the poker hands on TV while the players battle it out). There will be time enough for gloating when the "game" is OVER. Wondercoin

Dennisl

Mitch,
I agree with you 100%. Did I really say that.

Dennis

Mark

Dennis:

Given that Mitch posted the same message twice, I think your 100% agreement actually means that you agree 50% with him.

More seriously, I think anyone should have the right to reveal or not reveal the set while it's still active. Once the set is sold, if it is in the all-time finest list, keeping the set cloaked makes no sense and so at that time the set should be disclosed.

Mark

dldallen

I also agree with Mitch. If you are seriously competing for the front page and/or to stay there, then it makes sense not to show the cards you're playing. I am very close to completing a set currently and I've seen what fellow "friendly" competitors have done to prices even when they didn't need the coin themselves. Once you're in the top spot or top five, then it's quite evident that everything is going to be costly to upgrade so then it's six one way, half a dozen the other. Any true dealer that holds a coin or collector hostage beyond the norms should have his name plastered across these forums so all collectors would know what they are up against. Dave

Swan

Somebody asked why I removed my type set from view. First, I'll tell you why I listed it; I thought by registering the set I would open dialogues with other collectors. What better than to view other collections and to discuss their coins and collecting experiences. Never did I have delusions that my collection was one of the best, yes I have nice coins, but to take myself seriously enough to believe that my gold set was as nice as Eliasberg's, give me a break! I am a serious coin collector that enjoys reading and talking coins. If I am number 1 or 5, who cares? I enjoy nice coins. I admire the collectors like B. Walser, Tradedollarnut, Joshua, and others that have high ranking sets, not only listed, but with photographs!
I removed my set when the "leasing" discussion occurred, and the emphasis leaned toward very high grade common coins just to boost registry standings rather than building a quality collection like the previously mentioned collectors have done. I relate to a 1794 dollar, yet much emphasis centers on 1974 dollars. I would gladly re-list my coins, and probably will, I believe all of the top five should!
I am not suggesting that we change the registry. I am not in favor of making it easier, as they are in certain catagories, I thought it was pretty good. I am suggesting that as an educational forum or information exchange, it should be open at the top levels to help the collectors that are on the way up!
I have never been "held-up" by a dealer as a result of this registry. Just say NO. The nice thing about type collecting is that you have more options.
I do respect the right to people's privacy, I just don't understand why they would want to tell all their fellow collectors; look what I have! But, you can't see them!
Just an opinion...

cosmicdebris

As someone that would love to have as nice a set as you, Walser or HD I can say that sets like yours are an inspiration for the rest of us. It would be great for your sets to have pictures and to be open for all to veiw.

littlewicher

Wow, this board has a lot of peeping toms.

pop1

I would prefer to be in control of available "peeping" opportunities.
If this were to become a rule, I would probably move from the top five to number six, to regain control of choice.

sonofagunk

I agree that people should be able to hide their sets, but I would also like to thank the people that even though they are competing for the top, they do NOT hide.

Since I only follow lincolns, I would like to personally thank:
Tom Mershon
Mike Sadler
"Zook"
David Poole
Kyle Patrick
R.S.Gore
Wayne Herndon
Dennis Dewart

Nothing against the others, they are doing nothing wrong, but these people let me see what a top set REALLY looks like. Just imagine if EVERYONE hid their sets. The registry would "suck"

CarlWohlforth

I follow type sets. I sure would like to see what coins High Desert has. But even though I can't I'm glad he has registered. I respect his choice.

Thanks to those of you who image their coins! I just love to look at them all!

dbldie55

<< <i>Nothing against the others, they are doing nothing wrong, but these people let me see what a top set REALLY looks like. Just imagine if EVERYONE hid their sets. The registry would "suck" >>



There would be nothing for anyone to see, and would probably have fewer participants if you could not open the sets.

PCGS must sort of feel the same way. When they send out their emails highlighting a set, they will only talk of a set that is open for all to see.

scher

My 3cents worth...unmask the whole thing..if you register you must show us the money...
Bruce Scher

collecting interesting proof 10 indians,walkers,mercury's,buffallo's,classic commems, and especially those godly addictive 3cent nickels

Keyrock

In the Lincolns proofs (1950 to date), I blacked out my set since I have 3 coins that are weak (I'm number 2). I hope to get these coins upgraded but I didn't want to advertise which ones I wanted. I also look at it as "It's done and the only thing to do is upgrade". Who knows maybe when I'm done playing with the set and I'm happy with it I'll unblind it.

Rich

dldallen

Hi Rich,

Really enjoying that '33 I won from you!

Sending PM on your Proof Set.

Take care, Dave

Sunnywood

Swan, I disagree with your suggestion, at least until a set is finished in the eyes of its owner. If dealers (or competitive collectors) see what dates you need to complete a set, they will be much more likely to snap them up, or bid against you at auction. Dealers will know that you want that date, and they will look to profit from your need. Collectors have to be able to maintain privacy and discretion while building a set. Once a set is complete, obviously if someone wants total privacy, they don't have to participate in the Registry program at all. So I agree that once an owner decides that a set is complete, it makes sense to show all the coins. But of course, the same arguments apply to upgrades ... if a dealer sees you have every date in 65 but one, I guarantee you that dealer will buy any 65 that comes along and offer it to you at a higher price. Hope you see my point ....

Sunnywood

Swan

Sunnywood, I agree that currently, a registry member has every right to display or not diplay their coins. Their reasons are personal, but I think we can agree that , regardless of their reasons, the registry would be more informative and interesting to all of us, if all sets were open to view. We seem to agree on that, and so do the 90% that have their sets open to view.
A few have suggested that they would be held hostage by slick dealers that know you need that coin, so the prices would increase. That's not likely to happen with the quantity of dealers that have to turn coins to make a living and the population of coins available. We have watched Joshua build two top five Mercury dime collections. I built a top five Standing Liberty quarter collection, Bill Walser has built 25 high ranking collections of all denominations. I built a complete mint state type set(except one coin) with many duplicates. I have never experienced a case of this "extortion" you are so concerned about. If the quality and price are presented to me, I'll buy the coin...if not I pass. My experience has been just the contrary, I have been offered many coins because people knew I needed, or was a buyer of, that type of coin. You have to be patient, deal with good dealers, and know what you are looking for, eventually you'll find the price you wanted to pay for that coin you were held hostage for. This process has changed little in the 40 years I have experienced it. I will admit that a type collector generally has many more possibilities than a series collector.
There are collectors and great collections that exist today that prefer anonymity, and surpass any of the collections on the registry,( with the exception of Tradedollarnut), and that's fine. Those of us that chose to participate in the registry apparently aren't as concerned about anonymity, other than a few, so why not complete the display?
I guess after all this, I'll have to open my set again...

boiler78

Swan- Please do. I would love to see your collection! Maybe even images someday?

dldallen

Swan,

Mostly agree but how does displaying a set make it more "informative" for others? The Pops give more info than the coins themselves. Other than "informing" fellow collectors what they need to surpass your set, or dealers/collectors what to buy (so you don't surpass them or complete your set), there is no other information to be gained by opening a set. Interesting, yes I agree 100%. Informative, no.

I don't mind the fellow collectors knowing what they need to surpass or make a better set. That's part of the game and collecting. However, if you haven't seen folks (both collectors and dealers) jack up prices on coins because that's what you need at the time, then consider yourself very lucky. I would consider myself naive to think that it doesn't happen when it happens every day in certain venues. Perhaps you have the luxury of purchasing through different venues and with dealers that have supported you for many years. I would have to agree with Sunnywood on that part of the equation.

When I have the luxury of completing my set, I'll open it up. Because then I will have the luxury of saying yes or no to anyone for upgrading. But until complete, it will remain closed. Like many here have already said, "There ain't no Santa Claus" in the numis world. Best regards, Dave

khayse

> That's not likely to happen with the quantity of dealers that have to
> turn coins to make a living and the population of coins available.

Swan,

What about if it's a pop 10 coin? How about a pop 5?
As the pops get lower it gets less and less risky for
someone to up your bid for an auction because they know
there are not too many coins to choose from and they can
probably flip the coin to you for another $100 if they need
or choose to.

All,
Let's look at it this way, suppose I was only willing to list my set
if it was finished or closed. Would you rather not have my set listed
or have it listed but be closed?

-Keith H

keithdagen

Swan,

Glad that you are opening up your Type set again. Will look forward to seeing it. Most of the major setholders have good working relationships with major dealers. I really wish that they would get those dealers to help them image their coins, or image the coins themselves and share them in that respect.

I really enjoy looking at Bill Walser's Type set upgrades since he images each of the pieces. You don't get to see many of those pieces unless they are in an auction catalog, and being able to call up a picture at any time is a great resource for collectors old and new.

Keith

keets

hey swan!!!!!!!!!

don't ask somebody else to do something you're unwilling to do!!!!!!! undress, baby. let us see what holding!!!!!!

Swan

My set was open for quite a while and I am willing to reopen it. Read the prior posts.
I will concede that if you are chasing a certain coin, you probably don't want the whole world knowing your intentions. This is especially true for auction purchases where we have seen anomalies like a Franklin half selling for $50,000.+ and a Merc dime selling for $190,000.
Supply and demand will affect our purchases, in the short run we probably can't have it both ways; low, stable prices on coins we are trying to buy, and rising prices on coins we own.
Somebody asked what benefit is derived from people displaying their coins; a list alone has little value, but accompanied by photos it has several benefits to collectors: attributing coins correctly, identifying pedigrees, grading comparison, and tracking dipped or altered coins( read Shylocks thread in the coin forum on tracking the 1877 cent).
This is just a discussion, I realize I am a hypocrite, but I would like to see the top sets listed and photographed, mine included.

boiler78

Amen brother! I think one of the best things about these forums is sharing images as well as information.

pop1

While some of us don't have the knowledge/equipment to post sharp pix, I am sure collectors would welcome a trusted third party to charge for this service, as provided by ngc. It AMAZES me that pcgs chooses to ignore this consumer need, and "miss the boat" on this lost profit center.