Theoretical tax question
ProofCollection
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Hypothetical question:
Let's say you own 50 oz of gold coins that you bought over time in the 80's & 90's, and you sold them last year and made a good profit. The only thing is, you don't know or remember what you paid for them.
If you get audited by the IRS, and you tell the IRS you don't know what you paid (and thus, how much you made), how do they handle this?
Would they make you pay taxes on the entire sale then, assuming $0 cost basis? Would they accept your best estimate of what you paid? Or would they do something else?
I've always wondered what would happen if you lost your records or documentation.
Let's say you own 50 oz of gold coins that you bought over time in the 80's & 90's, and you sold them last year and made a good profit. The only thing is, you don't know or remember what you paid for them.
If you get audited by the IRS, and you tell the IRS you don't know what you paid (and thus, how much you made), how do they handle this?
Would they make you pay taxes on the entire sale then, assuming $0 cost basis? Would they accept your best estimate of what you paid? Or would they do something else?
I've always wondered what would happen if you lost your records or documentation.
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Comments
No doubt Oreville has some actual case histories he's heard over the years that might apply.
roadrunner
<< <i>Short of amnesia or senility I can't think of how anyone can forget all the buying information concerning 50 oz of gold. >>
An example would be like for me, I've acquired 1oz pre-1933 gold over the past 3 years at various prices between $800 and $1500 (in various grades). I can't tell you how much I paid for a given piece, when I bought it, or where I bought it without referring to my records because all of the pieces are pretty much generic. If I lost the records, then I don't know what would happen. There's a big difference in the tax between a cost basis of $800 and $1200 and $1500.
keep detailed records
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
roadrunner
But I suppose if you're actually realizing a sale quantifiable enough for the feds to take notice, and want another cut of your money on, then you probably don't care.
I knew it would happen.
So some price around $300 would be your worst case basis.
So some price around $300 would be your worst case basis.
If you have no records to show when a coin was bought, any reference to a timeframe or date would be looked upon as questionable. With no proof, you will have trouble in an audit. Our tax system is based upon self-reporting, with heavy-handed enforcement tactics. As long as none of your returns ever get audited, your estimates will be good. If they ever have a problem with any of your returns, I assume that your past returns will be subject to heavy scrutiny as well.
The whole thing sucks. Congress needs to get a life and stop using our money for their own edification. It's that simple.
I knew it would happen.
gold eagles
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>I would use this website to get an average price of gold for the years in question. This would help me make an educated guess. >>
Yes, but it's not always that easy... MS60+ Libs and Saints have had varying premiums over time.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>I'd sell them for cash to local dealers and start over with new coins that now have a cost basis. >>
But you have to pay the taxes upon doing so. So overall, you'll pay taxes on the exact same gain. The only benefit to selling them now and buying new ones is if you would pay lower taxes now than later. The drawback is that you have to come up with the tax money now (or buy fewer gold coins).
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd sell them for cash to local dealers and start over with new coins that now have a cost basis. >>
But you have to pay the taxes upon doing so. So overall, you'll pay taxes on the exact same gain. The only benefit to selling them now and buying new ones is if you would pay lower taxes now than later. The drawback is that you have to come up with the tax money now (or buy fewer gold coins). >>
You SHOULD pay taxes on the gain, but then again there's no record of YOU selling the coins in a cash sale. Better yet trade them for some other gold or silver and get a receipt assigning a dollar value to what you traded in. Now you have a cost basis on paper of your new bullion.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'd sell them for cash to local dealers and start over with new coins that now have a cost basis. >>
But you have to pay the taxes upon doing so. So overall, you'll pay taxes on the exact same gain. The only benefit to selling them now and buying new ones is if you would pay lower taxes now than later. The drawback is that you have to come up with the tax money now (or buy fewer gold coins). >>
You SHOULD pay taxes on the gain, but then again there's no record of YOU selling the coins in a cash sale. Better yet trade them for some other gold or silver and get a receipt assigning a dollar value to what you traded in. Now you have a cost basis on paper of your new bullion. >>
That doesn't work either... you're taxed on sales or "exchanges"
Even if you properly set up a tax deferred exchange, your basis in the new coins would be equal to your basis in the new ones which if you don't have records would like be determined to be zero by the IRS (though I think you'd have a strong argument that even w/o records your basis must at least be the face value of the coins, but that is likely de minimus in comparison to the real value).
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>You SHOULD pay taxes on the gain, but then again there's no record of YOU selling the coins in a cash sale. Better yet trade them for some other gold or silver and get a receipt assigning a dollar value to what you traded in. Now you have a cost basis on paper of your new bullion. >>
Are you saying simply not report the gain on your taxes?
If you get audited in the year that you don't report, you likely won't get caught. But if you get audited in the year that you later sell the new coins, and they could investigate your cost basis, they will see that you paid cash -- and ask where you got the cash from, since your bank account doesn't show a record of a withdrawal. Then, the IRS might start talking tax fraud (because rather than estimating your basis, you sold the old coins to avoid taxes).
But, the original question was for about $50K of gold coins -- which would require either the dealer reporting the cash transaction, or you intentionally avoiding the reporting (in which case if any of the dealers figure it out, I believe they are then required to report it). If reported, the IRS then knows that there is money needing taxes to be paid on it.
Maybe the IRS will be nice and changing it so that PM are taxed as capital gains, as they really ought to be. Now that would be nice!
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
How did you sell them, all at once or 1 CASH transaction at a time? To do it legally, there is no way of getting out of paying taxes. The minimum basis you could claim is face value with no records on hand......or, try to guesstimate with the gold spot time frame and take your chances with an audit. Although, cash looks good sitting in a safe and not in the bank, or transformed into other PM's.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>Maybe the IRS will be nice and changing it so that PM are taxed as capital gains, as they really ought to be. Now that would be nice! >>
Although after thinking about it, this could be done as an emergency move if it looks like there is going to be a run on gold (and/or silver). Cut the taxes on gold/silver gains, people holding them with gains (almost everyone with them) will start selling, getting gold/silver on the market.
Scratch off/lotto doesn't report under $600-700 or so here in GA. Spread sales and barters out under that figure with fractionals. VAT can bite it.
I'll trade vs sell my artwork for coins, bullion, art, or interesting items all day long...."interesting items" includes cash..
<< <i>Make purchases today based on the reporting minimum and adjust your stockpile to under those figures on purchases/sales that you figure might be around tomorrow.
Scratch off/lotto doesn't report under $600-700 or so here in GA. Spread sales and barters out under that figure with fractionals. VAT can bite it.
I'll trade vs sell my artwork for coins, bullion, art, or interesting items all day long...."interesting items" includes cash.. >>
By law, all lotto winnings are taxable. You are on the honor system for anything under $600-$700. Anything over that and they don't trust you so they take it up front when you cash in.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>Make purchases today based on the reporting minimum and adjust your stockpile to under those figures on purchases/sales that you figure might be around tomorrow.
Scratch off/lotto doesn't report under $600-700 or so here in GA. Spread sales and barters out under that figure with fractionals. VAT can bite it.
I'll trade vs sell my artwork for coins, bullion, art, or interesting items all day long...."interesting items" includes cash.. >>
By law, all lotto winnings are taxable. You are on the honor system for anything under $600-$700. Anything over that and they don't trust you so they take it up front when you cash in. >>
1099 income isn't reportable under that same 700, why should my barter transaction for metal be different.
You going to report selling your old couch at your garage sale and send the government 10%?
<< <i>You going to report selling your old couch at your garage sale and send the government 10%? >>
More than likely you'd be selling it a loss compared to what you bought it for. But if you did make a profit, you technically have to pay taxes on it... although I don't know anyone who would actually do that.
I'll give you a bill of sale for $1, make it all nice nice and legal.
<< <i>No way in hell I would.
I'll give you a bill of sale for $1, make it all nice nice and legal. >>
To make it clear, if you sell your couch at a garage sale for more than you paid for it (let's say you paid $400 and got $500), you would give the buyer a bill of sale for $1 to make it "nice and legal"?
That is what they call tax fraud.
I'm not saying that many people would actually pay taxes on it (or that many would even have the original receipt, which technically might be necessary if audited to avoid paying tax on the full $500). But there is a big difference between 'forgetting' to report (or not knowing that you need to report it, or not realizing you got more than you paid) and forging documentation.
If this VAT flies, look to what goes on in the gubbments precious Europe model. Folks regularly make secondary sales in different markets to avoid that horsesqueeze of a tax. The black market is fairly open over there too. Would that behavior happen here, yes.
If the only paperwork available for 'IRS prosecution' is that $1 bill of sale, from myself to someone else that bought an item I got as a birthday gift a decade ago....the taxman can pucker up while I bend over.