A new variety of Liberty Americana medal?
cardinal
Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭✭✭
The Libertas Americana medal has always been one of my favorites. This is the specimen I currently have in my collection:
All of the LA medals I've seen have been from this one die pairing, so imagine my surprise to come upon this 1783 announcement of their striking:
And, here is the "exact representation" of the medal:
Obviously Seguin, who engraved the copper printing plate used for the publication, must have viewed something on which to base his engraving, but it couldn't have been any of the actual medals we are familiar with today. Has anyone else ever seen or heard of the right-facing Libertas Americana?
Portraits of Liberty
All of the LA medals I've seen have been from this one die pairing, so imagine my surprise to come upon this 1783 announcement of their striking:
And, here is the "exact representation" of the medal:
Obviously Seguin, who engraved the copper printing plate used for the publication, must have viewed something on which to base his engraving, but it couldn't have been any of the actual medals we are familiar with today. Has anyone else ever seen or heard of the right-facing Libertas Americana?
Portraits of Liberty
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Comments
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>what's that on the stick behind her head? Much too small and gravity-defying to be a hat. Must be a shovel! >>
The famed Phrygian shovel, used by housewives to keep their husbands in line in antiquity.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
This is prior to medal ruling, so the print engraving is strictly an artist's copy and not a mechanically-made "exact Representation."
The next question is, who was Seguin, and did he live in Paris.....
I knew it would happen.
-Paul
that 500 were struck in gold, 1000 in silver, and 2000 in copper. The “Tyger,” according
to the writer, represented “supposed” British tyranny.
Coinosaurus thinks that the person engraving the medal had the dies in front of him
and this is likely the case. It also indicates that Seguin was at the Paris Mint and no
doubt spoke with Dupre. One wonders why, however, the lettering would be more or
less as on the medal but the figures reversed.
The mintage figures are, of course, wrong but perhaps a further indication that Seguin
saw the work at any early stage and these were the projected numbers furnished by
Dupre.
Denga
The Libertas Americana medals were not authorized by order of the American Congress, there were not 500 struck in gold (the other mintages mentioned are quite high and are not substaniated) and the "Tyger" was in reality supposed to be a representation of a leopard.
Dupre was the engraver of the dies; he did not necessarily design them, and there is no direct evidence to suggest this was the case.
If "Sequin" (whoever he was?) ever engraved such as what is illustrated, I doubt there are any extant (as none are presently known after 225 years) if they were actually produced in the first place. To me, it looks like a woodcut (not from the working or finished dies as it's missing the Oct. 19, 1781 date, plus, the lettering and figures would have been backwards, etc.) rather than a copper plate engraving of the real medal. It's nothing more than a creative license illustration, however well meaning.
I think the "Hibernian Magazine" (whatever that is) is typical of most newspaper accounts regarding numismatics...lacking in most details and sorely missing most of the accurate background surrounding the subject of the writing.
However, even today, we see that creative writing classes are popular...
Thanks to Cardinal for sharing, and it's nice to see that he replaced his silver one with another of equal beauty. Congrats!
<< <i>And we wonder why we deal with so much mis-information today...
I think the "Hibernian Magazine" (whatever that is) is typical of most newspaper accounts regarding numismatics...lacking in most details and sorely missing most of the accurate background surrounding the subject of the writing. >>
Obviously, the writer of the "Hibernian Magazine" was not well informed. Perhaps the sub-title of "Compendium of Entertaining Knowledge" reveals the publisher's willingness to blend in a bit of fiction to add to the entertainment.
From a vastly more scholarly and thoroughly-researched approach, John W. Adams and Anne E. Bentley (Comitia Americana and Related Medals, published in 2007 by George F. Kolbe) located Benjamin Franklin's records of his payments for the production of the Libertas Medals. Those records reveal that only 2 gold medals were purchased, along with approximately 60 silver and 200 copper. Of those original strikings, Adams and Bentley estimate that around 33 remain of the silver medals (only 22 definitively traced) and only 56 remain of the copper medals (just 37 definitively traced).
_______________________________________
Portraits of Liberty
<< <i>Of those original strikings, Adams and Bentley estimate that around 33 remain of the silver medals (only 22 definitively traced) and only 56 remain of the copper medals (just 37 definitively traced). >>
The silver population total sounds realistic to me; the copper impossibly low. I would guess the actual population of copper pieces is more like a few hundred.
And we wonder why we deal with so much mis-information today...
The Libertas Americana medals were not authorized by order of the American Congress, there were not 500 struck in gold (the other mintages mentioned are quite high and are not substaniated) and the "Tyger" was in reality supposed to be a representation of a leopard.
Dupre was the engraver of the dies; he did not necessarily design them, and there is no direct evidence to suggest this was the case.
If "Sequin" (whoever he was?) ever engraved such as what is illustrated, I doubt there are any extant (as none are presently known after 225 years) if they were actually produced in the first place. To me, it looks like a woodcut (not from the working or finished dies as it's missing the Oct. 19, 1781 date, plus, the lettering and figures would have been backwards, etc.) rather than a copper plate engraving of the real medal. It's nothing more than a creative license illustration, however well meaning.
I think the "Hibernian Magazine" (whatever that is) is typical of most newspaper accounts regarding numismatics...lacking in most details and sorely missing most of the accurate background surrounding the subject of the writing.
However, even today, we see that creative writing classes are popular...
Some corrections are necessary to the above remarks by firstmint:
1) The October 19, 1781, date is on the engraving and discussed in the accompanying
story. The Hibernian writer even explained what the various dates meant.
2) The Hibernian writer stated that the engraving is copperplate, which was a selling point
for magazines of that period. It is a copperplate engraving.
3) The Hibernian Magazine is what it says it is, not a newspaper as implied by firstmint.
4) There are clearly mistakes in the 1783 account but it is likely that the engraver, Seguin,
obtained his information from Dupre at an early date and changes were made afterwards.
5) While I am still of the opinion that the dies were used for the engraving, it is also possible
that Seguin had access to an earlier set of sketches.
6) Seguin, it would appear, had no contact with Benjamin Franklin even though the latter was
still our Minister to Paris during 1783. Dupre may well have believed at an early stage of the
work that the medal had been ordered by Congress rather than Franklin personally.
7) This sort of information is important for a better understanding of the Libertas Americana
medal and Cardinal is to be congratulated for bringing this to our attention.
Denga
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Did you obtain that from the Ford Collection? It looks like one in the Stack's catalog. I love that medal. >>
That is not from the Ford collection. It is a piece we handled in 2006, and came out of a collection in Maine where it resided for about 6 years.
<< <i>
<< <i>Did you obtain that from the Ford Collection? It looks like one in the Stack's catalog. I love that medal. >>
That is not from the Ford collection. It is a piece we handled in 2006, and came out of a collection in Maine where it resided for about 6 years. >>
It's a coin that has always left me speechless and I've memorized the text from your archives
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......