1804 BoE Dollar questions

1960NYGiants

I was shown an example of an 1804 Bank of England dollar that was struck over an 1806 Chile 8R. The coin would probably grade Fine.

My questions:
1. Were the BoE dollars ante dated or just struck over a few years?
2. Is there a reference book on this series?
3. What would have been a fair price for this piece?

Thanks in advance!

RobP

<< <i>I was shown an example of an 1804 Bank of England dollar that was struck over an 1806 Chile 8R. The coin would probably grade Fine.

My questions:
1. Were the BoE dollars ante dated or just struck over a few years?
2. Is there a reference book on this series?
3. What would have been a fair price for this piece?

Thanks in advance! >>


The BoE dollars were all dated 1804, but are known to have been struck up to at least 1811 based on the undertyped dates recorded. They were current for 5/- until 1811, then revalued to 5/6d until withdrawn in 1817 following the introduction of the new coinage.

The references for the series are principally E(nglish) S(ilver) C(oinage) by P A Rayner (5th ed. 1992) and 'The 19th Century Token Coinage' by W J Davies published in 1904, but reprinted by Seaby in 1969. Initially the coins were struck over captured currency at the Soho Mint, but following its closure in the late 1840's the dies were acquired by W J Taylor and restrikes produced in various metals on different thickness flans. Neither book gives an indication how to separate the two striking periods, though the copper example illustrated in the current Coin of the Year thread is almost certainly a restrike from a reverse die which has been repaired by polishing away rust leaving a raised ridge near the centre of the coin.

Spink's current tome gives the fine (UK) price as £130-190, but given the disparity between US & UK grades it would be less than this for a probable fine. A picture would be useful.

laurentyvan

I owned one of these once and should never have sold it. It draws the eye like a magnet
and feels dynamite in hand (grade permitting).

And you can't beat the date-I don't know why all US coin collectors don't own one.

farthing

W J Taylor was a busy man! Interesting to learn that he re-struck BOE dollars in addition to his work with the Conder token series.

RobP

<< <i>W J Taylor was a busy man! Interesting to learn that he re-struck BOE dollars in addition to his work with the Conder token series. >>



Appendix 10(d) in Peck lists a consignment of 804 items from Taylor's workshop dated 29/6/1880. Included in the total were Cu 1798 BoE $ short hair (5), ditto long hair (10), 1804 Britannia $ in Cu (5), ditto Garter $ (5 + 4), Two other pkts of BoE $s, long & short hair (5+5), BoE 5/6d 1811 in Cu, short hair obv by Philp, rev Britannia (10), ditto in Cu but obv. long hair by Kuchler (5), ditto in Cu, obv. Short hair by Philp, rev. oak wreath (25).

This is documented with the original at Baldwins. It should therefore be possible to establish which pieces are restrikes and which original. The 1804 $ mentioned above and my thick flan ESC 167 (ex Norweb 553) both show a raised ridge on the rev. behind Britannia. This is typical of Taylor's work as he polished away rust to improve the look of the dies. The resulting pit would of course give a raised feature on the finished article. We know that die storage at Soho was somewhat careless, so any dies showing extreme remedial work or struck from heavily rusted dies are almost certainly going to be Taylor's. Heavily rusted ones will be early restrikes, but it should be possible to trace the stages between repairs if enough examples are available. ESC, Davies and Linecar & Stone all avoid attribution, so there is a project for someone if they want it. Taylor frequently used a plain collar which is often seen to have slipped with corresponding marks on the edge and a double struck coin which is slightly rotated.

It's a murky area and one which needs further investigation given that the once distained restrikes are now fetching prices similar to those of the originals in a lot of cases.

Taylor modified or repaired most of the dies that were acquired from Soho as shown in Peck's tome. For the record, I added a little bit to this in the 2007 BNJ when I wrote a short paper proving how the 1807 proof halfpenny die was concocted from the broken jewel obverse die. Something that was entirely in Taylor's character.

TwoKopeiki

I have a dilemma right now. One of the local B&M shops has a gorgeously toned affordable MS example plagued with surface hairlines. I am having hard time talking myself out of buying it

Hussulo

If the hairlines bother you now, they will still bother you in years to come. I'm speaking from experience.
I would say hold on for a specimen that doesn't trouble you and you will be happier owning it.

JCMhouston

I too felt the need to own one of these, since I like copper I got one of those. Note the wavy area behind Britannia, two people have said they thought this was from a partially collapsed die, but no one is sure. This sounds like a good project for your spare time Rob.

RobP

I have neither an adequate supply of research material nor the time to do a study unfortunately.

The problem with the collapsed die theory is that we are looking at dies which are hardened and therefore tend to shatter. A collapse would suggest an inclusion within the die which I think would not survive for very long and upon collapsing would leave an exposed crystalline cavity which would be quite difficult to remove. I would also think that such a feature would weaken the surrounding area and so encourage further degradation.

I've just had another look at my reverse and there is the remnant of a die crack roughly coinciding with the line of the ridge. There is a shortish line above Britannia's head and another along the same trajectory further down and ending about level with the S at 3 o'clock. All this points towards a major flaw which has been polished out. We are certainly looking at an old die because there is another significant crack through the E and a balding patch in the horizontal lines below the F of FIVE. All this is suggestive of a later restrike.

1960NYGiants

RobP - Thanks for your input. I did not buy the coin so no picture available.

Farthing - Taylor was also known to restrike Canadian tokens from Soho dies. This piece is believed to be one of his works:


JCMhouston - That copper is a beauty.