Wade Boggs vs Derek Jeter
incugator
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Two fantastic baseball players. Boggs got a late start for a HOF'er. He really wasn't an everyday 3B until age 25.
The big questions are who would you take as a hitter and who would you take as a complete player.
Both played in the steriod era (Canseco started in 86). Under the rules of this arguement, you need to assume that both players played under the use of POD's.
Take into consideration the surrounding cast, too.
Note: No extra points for mustaces or hot girlfriends/wife.
The big questions are who would you take as a hitter and who would you take as a complete player.
Both played in the steriod era (Canseco started in 86). Under the rules of this arguement, you need to assume that both players played under the use of POD's.
Take into consideration the surrounding cast, too.
Note: No extra points for mustaces or hot girlfriends/wife.
-Ryan
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His speed was not the very best, but a good smart base runner nonetheless. His defense was actually pretty good, not a liability at all, but was one of the best.
In sum, Boggs was a hitting machine, very efficient, getting pitchers deep in the count and got on base a lot.
Jeter is no slouch in hitting, but Boggs is better in getting on base and putting the ball into play. However, Jeter has excellent speed, so that helps him. His defense is above average. I cannot say that Jeter is necessarily better in the power numbers because Boggs gets a lot of doubles and those are useful in driving in runs. I know in some years, Jeter hit more home runs than Boggs, but you got to look at triples and doubles as well.
Boggs was the better offensive threat, but Jeter might be a more complete player because of the speed factor. Either way, one cannot go wrong with either, seriously.
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Boggs committed the sin of playing for the dark side just to try to get a ring before he retired. If you're a Red Sox legend, like he already was, the move to NY didn't make sense from a legacy standpoint. I guess even though fans in Boston will always love him, the NY stint had at least a small tarnishing effect.
I don't see Jeter ever playing anywhere else. Its a special thing to play your entire career for 1 team and in the long run, I think that matters.
Both are fan favorites, but neither has ever been the best overall player at their position during their careers.
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<< <i>Just think of Wade's worth now if he was playing considering how much teams value the OPB. Back in the 80's OPB was a nice stat and now it is a great stat. >>
OPB or OBP??
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POD? Don't you mean PED...
OPB? Don't you mean OBP?
OGM, er, I mean OMG I'm OLL . . . whopps, LOL!
in a pornstache contest??? Boggs
These are the only criteria that interest me....sorry
Overall -- Jeter... Jeter is more of a complete player, his leadership and "winner" attitude is why I would take Jeter over Boggs..
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Boggs better hitter, I take Boogs.
<< <i>
<< <i>Just think of Wade's worth now if he was playing considering how much teams value the OPB. Back in the 80's OPB was a nice stat and now it is a great stat. >>
OPB or OBP?? >>
OBP, that is what happens when you post before 8:00AM and no coffee.
Boggs was easily the better hitter. Higher OPS and more of that came from the more valuable O part of the equation, played in a decade with a good number fewer runs scored, so each run he helped contribute to was worth more. As already alluded to, he was a very good hitter in 1981, but not allowed to play at all that year and only in a part time role in 1982
Can't see the defensive value making up that much of a difference
Career BA - .317
Career BA with RISP - .308
Career BA with men on - .317
Career playoff BA - .313
Six career walk-off hits (David Ortiz has 17 in 700 fewer games!)
1 career walk-off hit in the playoffs.
<< <i>Jeter's "clutchness" is very overrated. >>
You can't quantify "clutchness". Throw all the stats you want at the issue, but the fact is, when the game is on the line, do you want the ball to be hit to him? Do you want him at bat? If he has to make a great play will he do whatever it takes to make the play? In Jeter's case the answer is yes on all counts.
I HATE Derek Jeter, not as a person, not as a player, not as a role model, but out of respect as an Oakland A's fan. I still don't understand why he was where he was on this play that may have cost the A's a chance to go to the World Series in 2001.
What the hell was he doing backing up first base?
<< <i>You can't quantify "clutchness". Throw all the stats you want at the issue, but the fact is, when the game is on the line, do you want the ball to be hit to him? Do you want him at bat? If he has to make a great play will he do whatever it takes to make the play? In Jeter's case the answer is yes on all counts. >>
Of course you want him at the plate...he's a very good hitter. But, the stats don't lie....he's not clutch, so he won't do any better than normal in clutch situations.
And, there are tons of players that will do whatever it takes to make the play.
As for the "flip" play...very few people know that he was backing up the throw because Joe Torre told him that's what he should do on throws from the right field line. I don't know why people go crazy over that play.
Because it was an amazing play on its own, and then even more so when you consider the context in which it was made. By not recognizing/appreciating that play (and combined with your past posts on him), I'm guessing that you are just not a fan of Jeter at all.
It's a great question - if you're building a real team, would you take Boggs or Jeter first? A fantasy team, clearly Boggs, and I think from a stats perspective he's easily a superior player compared to Jeter especially since he played 3rd and not LF or 1B. But an actual team where chemistry matters, and when someone needs to wear the 'C'? That's a tough choice. Personally, I'd go with Jeter, and be confident that he'd help create a clubhouse and team that would be more likely to get/keep/grow players like Boggs. Was Boggs ever the Sox captain (I honestly don't know - if not, who from 85-95? Rice? Evans? Rocket?) Begs the question of what a 'normal' team would have been like with Jeter on it for the last 15 yrs (as to both him and the team). I agree that playing in NY boosts Jeter higher than he would at another team, but I also think he would have been like a Ripken, Puckett, or Sandberg type player wherever he would have played.
better OBP: boggs
better fielder: tie
boggs wins hands down.
Jeter is a fantastic ball player and has some fantastic plays, because he is smart guy and does his job. His defense (or his appearance of improved D) last year improved because he had a gold glover at 1b.
Boggs was the best hitter for a good long time and totally dominated the league in that category. I would love to give him 4-5 more good years in the big leagues and see his numbers then. He languished in the minors for several seasons behind Lansford correct?
Jeter would be the player Id take if you need a hustle double or someone to eventually score once on base.
The difference....... Boggs rarely popped up or struckout.
compared to Jeter....... who actually wiffs fairly often (1/6).
But what if Wade or Derek went head to head against Mike Ditka??? Who would win?
<< <i>Because it was an amazing play on its own, and then even more so when you consider the context in which it was made. >>
The context is just one reason why it's overrated.
What is the amazing part about running 100 feet, catching a ball on a hop, and flipping it? Every MLB SS can make that play if you give them the opportunity.
<< <i>Of course you want him at the plate...he's a very good hitter. But, the stats don't lie....he's not clutch, so he won't do any better than normal in clutch situations. >>
I think every major league scout will tell you that stats are often known to obscure reality. There are plenty of players that look better on paper then they do on the field and vise versa. Being a career .300+ in all of the categories that you just mentioned deems him "clutch" by any means even to the cliche stat junkie. Derek Jeter has been one of the most consistent players of the decade. While I have never approved of the term "clutch" I believe that a player who remains consistly excellent every inning is much more vital to a team than a player who only shows up for the 9th inning.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." Dr. Seuss
If Jeter's career were to end today, though they roughly belong to the same class of HOFer, I'd say Boggs has the more impressive career.
But Jeter has maybe another 5 to 6 good years to go... (watch out, Pete Rose.)
As far as the steriod heavy 90's vs the somewhat usign steriod 80's. Who know's if either of them used anything? Nobody knows anything for sure.
It looks like 90%+ like Boggs as a hitter but there is a split on the better player.
We can all agree that these guys are both great players and belong in the Hall.
Since it's a tough call, who's baseball career would you rather have?
Mustace's, Girls, and Beer Drinking cannot be a factor.
<< <i>As for the "flip" play...very few people know that he was backing up the throw because Joe Torre told him that's what he should do on throws from the right field line. I don't know why people go crazy over that play. >>
From the perspective of an A's fan (we hate the Yankees anyway), we go crazy because if pot-smokin' PED-takin' Jeremy Giambi just slides instead of going in standing up, he's safe, the A's tie the game with Zito pitching an absolute masterpiece (yes, THAT Zito!). Since the A's led the series 2-0 at that point if they win (the Yanks won three straight to take the series), the Jeter legend doesn't gain momentum. He also made an amazing play in game 5 to seal the deal.
SI did an interesting article a few years back about who was each teams "Public Enemy" #1. For the A's it was of course, Kirk Gibson...with Jeter a close 2nd. But Giambi was mentioned as #3.
<< <i> you need to assume that both players played under the use of POD's. >>
Really?
Steve
<< <i>Every MLB SS can make that play if you give them the opportunity >>
The point is no one GAVE him that opportunity, he made that opportunity.
Of course anyone could make it (including many here) if they were told to be in that spot at that time.
Steve
The steriod use in the 80's and 90's was out of control. You will never know who did and didn't use it. You must assume that everybody played on an even field (of enhanced performance) Somebody is/will be in the hall who used POD's. It is pretty similar to the HGH problem of today. We will probably hear about ESPN breaking that story in about 10 years from now.
1) games played, batting average fades up to age 32
2) loses speed around age 31, 32 (same as Barry Bonds, who stopped stealing bases after beginning steroids in 1997 at the age of 32.)
3) stops winning gold gloves around age 31, 32 (same as Barry Bonds, who stopped winning Gold Gloves after bulking up)
4) sudden boost in batting average ~50pts, slugging by 100 points after age 32 (same as Bonds)
5) has best batting five years of his life from ages 33 to 37 - by far (same as Bonds)
6) Hits the most home runs in his career at ages 37 and 38! (same as Bonds!!!)
http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gwynnto01.shtml
Also, he strongly supported McGwire after the latter admitted andro use a decade ago. This is not behavior typical of a non-cheater... (non-cheaters, e.g. Jack Clark, often view cheaters with disgust.)
I'm very, very suspicious of Tony Gwynn - sorry. (OTOH, it is quite possible for a performance boost with the modern strength training and diet...)
* I remember many many times Derek getting the hit that counts vs not getting the hit that counted. Even though there has been a few of those too.
* Derek is all about winning and winning the World Series, which is super difficult to execute. Derek's team has won 5 WS and counting during Derek's career.
* The play I remember most isn't the flip. It's July 1, 2004 the dive into the stands to rob Boston's Trot Nixon in the 12th inning of a huge midsummer game against the red sox.
* Personally if the game was on the line and I had to pick who I wanted to get a hit at the plate. I would want Derek to bat.
This is all just my opinion.
Bill James talked about the All-Time greats in one context by measuring their MVP voting performance. While it is not perfect, it is a fairly good barometer of what people that are paid to watch baseball on a daily basis think of the players in question. In Boggs' career he finished 4-6-7-9-12-13-17-21-22 in MVP voting when he did finish in the Top 25. Jeter has results of 2-3-3-6-10-10-10-11-13-21-24. I think I tend to agree with those numbers. I am not a Yankees nor a Red Sox fan, but I am more impressed with Jeter's body of work in general, and apparently so are the sportswriters. Boggs was a good third-baseman defensively, but certainly not a great one. He won a couple of gold gloves. Jeter has won four gold gloves so far, and he did it in an era loaded with great shortstops. While Jeter's postseason numbers are about the same as his regular season numbers, Boggs' numbers are at a severe decline in the big games. He won his only World Series with the Yankees in 1996. He should be very thankful, since his 6 hits in 38 at bats during three rounds of playoffs (with no power at all) was certainly no help at all.
Boggs was a Hall of Famer, no doubt. Jeter is one of those guys that has a shot at getting 98% or more in the voting.
You guys do not need to bring all that leader/clutch/titles myth to make Jeter a great player. His superior play merits the recognition of a top tier HOFer, especially if he plays near this level for a few more seasons.
Your harping on stuff that is myth and perception just makes his case worse...and then make people compare him to Jack Wilson as a result.
Bringing up the play at home plate, or titles, as reasons of Jeter's gretness was a ploy used in the early 2000's by Jeter fans in order to find something that could make him comparable to the superior SS's Arod, and Nomar. Guys, Jeter has done enough now that those amateur ploys are no longer needed to make a case for him.
I don't think the question of Jeter/BOggs will be settled until we see how jeter's next five years play out. Clearly Boggs had a five year peak that Jeter could not touch, but if Jeter can maintain another five years worth of playing SS and producing an OPS+ around 120, and also maintain his high rate of stolen bases, then he may very well surpass Boggs as the preferable player.
Jeter iconic figure forever beloved in NY.
That remind me I need to get their GEM MINT cards with special ebucks offer ending tonite.
<< <i>Strange bump, but while it's bumped, let me vent about a pet peeve. Jeter did not dive into the stands to rob anything. He caught the ball, took 2 or 3 steps, then decided to dive into the stands. I'm about the biggest Jeter fan you'll ever find among Red Sox fans, but that is one of the most misconstrued and overhyped plays in sports history. >>
Stop with your vile blasphemy!
Edit to add: Boggs played 11 years for Boston.
<< <i>Their criteria is 10+ years with the team and HOF induction. Used to be a requirement that you finish your career with the Sox. I think that's what's hurting his chances.
Edit to add: Boggs played 11 years for Boston. >>
Thanks. It's a bummer that Pedro won't get his number retired then. He's my favorite pitcher of all time.
Jeter played 20 years on what most would consider superior teams.
He was a very, very good player on a team of very good players. Including maybe the
greatest closer ever!
He only led the league 9 times in any category (5 of which were plate appearances.)
He was a very durable player (Very Cal like.)
He won 5 Silver Sluggers & 5 Gold Gloves.
Boggs played 18 years and led the league in 31 categories!
He won 8 Silver Sluggers & 2 Gold Gloves.
His string of hitting from 1983-1991 was jaw dropping.
1983 Batting title, 1984 3rd, 1985-88 Batting title, 1989 3rd, 1990 5th & 1991 2nd.
The craziest stat is that he led the league in intentional walks 6 times! That is crazy for a non power hitter!
Jeter was never intentionally walked more than 5 times in a season. Boggs has a high of 25! Which you could
say shows who the real feared clutch player on each team was.
Jeter played in 33 postseason series to Boggs 9.
Jeter was put in front of us in almost 4 times as many big games.
I wouldn't say that was because of Jeter or Boggs as much as it was the talent and managers that they played with & for.
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Boggs was clearly the better player.
This Yanks fan's vote goes to Boggs. As a kid and rabid BB fan who grew up watching a whole lot of Yankees baseball from 83-89, I can tell you that Boggs was an absolute beast. I hated when we faced him and have always thought of him as one of the best pure hitters that I have ever seen. He seemed to get on base all of the time and if he failed to reach base he usually had a productive at bat (moved runners over, worked a 10 pitch at bat, etc). I also feel that 80s vs 90s/00s baseball offense is a significant factor too, the ball didn't "pop" in the 80s like it did in the 90s.
With that said, Jeter had an amazing career and a lot of the aforementioned intangibles should be considered. But to me, and I definitely respect those who feel differently, he simply doesn't measure up to Boggs calibre as a pure player.
Tony Gwynn vs Wade Boggs was fun for a while. That was a comparison you heard a lot in the 1980's, Boggs had the stats and the benefit of playing in the large market of Boston. As a result, it was all about Boggs in the 1980's, while Gwynn was an after thought to most people. Then as Gwynn got better and better through the 90's and Boggs started jumping around and falling off on the stats, that comparison moved the other direction permanently. But it was fun to read the back of each player's baseball card and compare. Boggs had ridiculous stats every year, but most of his numbers were very skewed towards playing at home. He had the perfect swing for the green monster and took advantage of Fenway's dimensions as well as anyone. He's hit .390 at home and .315 on the road with 75% of his doubles coming at Fenway. Gwynn was pretty much 50/50 home and road through his career. Boggs walked more, Gwynn stole more bases. Gwynn developed into a gold glover every year while Boggs was good, not great at 3B.
And if there is one player in baseball that would never use PED's, it's Tony Gwynn. Because he got better and better every year and fat does not mean he used PED's. That post was a little out of nowhere.
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>Wade Boggs vs. Derek Jeter seems a little random of a comparison. >>
More random than a bump of a five year old thread?
Without a doubt I would take boggs. A much better defender (Jeter was an historically bad shortstop) and boggs was also a better hitter. Jeter has built a "mythical" status, in part, by being on tv in the postseason nearly every year for 15 years. The idea that Jeter was clutch is another misnomer. He just had many more opportunities than the average player and performed almost exactly the same as he did during the regular season. As for gwynn, it is a very unpopular opinion, but I have some serious suspicions about late career steroid use. In know he was overweight, but the stats are very suspicions. Most players don't have their best years from age 33-38.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.