edited title (because I can) the Uruguay Coin/? Heaton Hoard??

StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
I was trolling around ebay and saw this auction: Uruguay pattern/proof.

This is the third one of these I've seen. The same seller had another one a couple years back and a couple more years back I'd seen on at NEN that I'd actually bought on a whim.

Anyway, I had posted here, asked NEN back in the day, and asked this seller before and never really found out much about it. This time he/she noted it came from the Heaton "hoard" but couldn't/wouldn't say more about the history or mintage of the coin.

Any thoughts on it or could anyone point me in the direction to find out more about this hoard of trials/proofs/specimens etc that was found and (presumably) sold off? For some reason I have always loved this design and I'd like to find more about it and the 'unlisted' proof status it has. I think this makes three that NGC must've known about to slab so.

Funny I have one, definitely one of my more random impulsive buys! Now, I just have to nab one of the gold ones too imageimageimage.


Cathy

Comments

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 41,328 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hey, I think you gave me one of those, once. Not the pattern/proof, but the regular issue. I always thought it was a cool design.
  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,760 ✭✭✭
    Sure wish I had seen it before bidding ended.... I really would have liked thatimage
  • The Heaton hoard, as I recall, was auctioned off (possibly by Stack ((don't quote me on this)) about 6 years ago? Many proofs of world issues. Can anyone else shed some light on a dark issue?image I crack myself up!
    Lurker since '02. Got the seven year itch!

    Gary
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 6,115 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A beautiful piece that demonstrably displays it's art deco influence.
    In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I definitely love the art deco design--which is why I bought the one example years ago even though it was/is way out of my 'serious collecting interests'. I know I've picked up several of the circulation examples for fun...just the sort of thing I would slip into a giveaway or mailing at random. When I posted about it a few years ago there were several astute comments about it, including that it may have just been an exceptionally nice circulation piece. However, NGC did put it in a proof slab and NEN had sold it as an 'unlisted proof'. Now having seen two more examples it does make sense that it really is what the slab says.

    And Boz..sorry for not posting my question sooner image, but think of the money I saved you!

    As for the design, I wish I were kidding about the gold (and my lust thereof..). My older Krause (33rd edition) has the gold one with a mintage of 60. Also listed is a 1930 essai in the aluminum-bronze which is what this auction's 1936 looks to be like. The 1930 has a mintage of 70 apparently. If anyone's new edition of Krause says something different I would love to know.


    Cathy

  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,760 ✭✭✭
    That's OK,,, but don't let it happen againimage
  • laurentyvanlaurentyvan Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭
    I really would have liked that

    Boz, yes you would have.image

    A beautiful piece with art deco heritage, heck-almost lifted intact from french designs but facing right.
    One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics
    is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,760 ✭✭✭
    I have a silver one, but that is really special.image
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd take a picture of mine to show, but it's locked up in a box somewhere until I get back. I thought I had some on my computer but I can't seem to find them right now.

    Anyway, a ttt to see if anyone could point me to where I could try to find out more about the 'hoard', it's contents, mintages and history.

    Also, could someone with a slightly more updated Krause (mine is the 33rd edition, from way back in 2006) take a peek at the end of the Uruguay section and see if there is a 1936 essai/proof/pattern listed (like the 1930)? And if so, mintage numbers?


    Cathy

  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,760 ✭✭✭
    There is nothing listed for 1936 in that area in my 37th Edition.,,, there is the 1930 version ...E-10 mintage 60 $2500 in gold,
  • WillieBoyd2WillieBoyd2 Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They did manage to use a similar design for the obverse of this coin:

    image

    Uruguay 20 Centesimos 1942

    image
    https://www.brianrxm.com
    The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
    Coins in Movies and Coins on Television
    The 1949 San Francisco Mexico Peso Restrikes


  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for checking! It's just a lovely design...

    Hmmm.....gold......Wow, est $2500 for a gold proof pattern with a mintage of 60. I wonder what an equivently dated/metal'ed/mintage figure'd US coin would go for? I would have no idea, I wonder if it's an appropritate hypothetical for the US Coin forum. In any case, I'm sure if I see THAT one someday i will be coveting it, but whew, a little out of my league for something so far out of my normal areas.


    Cathy

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 21,579 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think that's a Heaton Mint issue. (I could be wrong, but the A mintmark points to Paris.)

    As for the Heaton Mint hoard, the bulk of it was acquired by Paramount in about 1974. They then auctioned a sample of the coins at a Long Beach sale in 1975, and dispersed the rest over the next few (?) years. Also, another much smaller group was sold by Spink about 5 years ago.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.

    image
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, now, that just makes more sense too. The coins have French designs/designers (without looking I can't remember if it's Morlon or Bazor on this one). Here is a 2006 web question I found (and answered by the familiar sounding image Brad Swain ): Linkage. No mention of mintmark in that post though, perhaps the 'words below the cat' comment was the remenent of the mark.

    I REALLY have to go home and check my limited library, but I did find one Uruguay coin collector site online that referenced the Paris mint as having struck the 1930 version and the Austria/Vienna mint (mintmark A) as the 1936. ((Link, because I'm at work and will never find this site again otherwise...)). I need to check on this part too. Heaton is looking alot less likely, again.

    Other French trial/proof types tend to have the 'essai' on them as well, and this one does not. Hmmmm....so why are there what seems to be three of these out there slabbed by NGC who presumably checked up on this stuff? Plus there is a now non-communicative seller who thinks they are from the Heaton mint?

    I am not a good researcher for these things, and I don't speak/read Spanish so the Monedas de Uruguay site is out for me. Hmmm...a bit of a puzzle at this point. Is it a proof or just a really nice circulation strike which had been supposed before? It looks French...but did it come from Austria? If it is proof, just how many are there? How did the Heaton name get brought into this?

    Sigh. Oh well, back to work now.


    Cathy

    edited to add the Brad Swain link image and I would edit the title if I could remember how.


  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,760 ✭✭✭
    Quite a catch.


    Would have been a better catch in my handsimage
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Would have been a better catch in my hands >>


    Boz, next time I see one, I will let you know image. At this rate, probably in about two years.

    So another ignorant question...how does one go about asking the mint about their records? If it was an English language mint I would try random emailing to whatever contacts I could find. However, it seems direspectful to email in English to France or Austria, not to mention possibly rude to do so randomly. I suppose I could babelfish it or something....

    Is it hard to validate an unlisted proof I wonder? NGC certainly came up with the idea these were proofs somehow.

    Oh, and I found the Really Old Pictures I took of the one tucked away in a box somewhere--these pictures are pretty bad, I think I was outside with my pocket camera. This is the NEN one I got ages ago.

    image

    image

    image

    image

    image

    image

  • Here may be the 3rd one:

    ebay
  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,760 ✭✭✭
    Yes , I know of that one,,, Spoon and I have been trying to get him to reduce the price, but he will not come below $550 for it,,, to high for me.image
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, I've been having a little fun with this. I found an ancient email of mine (I'd forgotten I had a gmail account until I changed laptops today and I had forwarded this one to gmail). I had gotten an answer about the one I'd bought from them:

    <<From: "James Ricks" <[email protected]>
    Date: August 29, 2006 2:28:09 AM GMT+09:00
    To: <[email protected]>
    Cc: "Chris Clements" <[email protected]>
    Subject: Uruguay 10c.


    Hi Cathy-

    thank you for the email. The piece in question is definitely a proof striking (the glassy fields are hard to capture in the image as I can see). It came from Europe with a small group of other Vienna mint proofs, probably sold by someone who had worked at the mint in those years. All of the pieces were proofs, including rare Polish, Chinese, and Uruguayan minors. Many of them were unlisted. This was the only Uruguay 10c in the group so I believe it to be extremely rare. I hope this helps!

    Best

    James, Northeast>>

    _______________________________________________________________________________

    I had also contacted the current ebay seller of the auction just posted and this was his answer:

    <<Hi, this is a very rare Specimen made in Austria, mintage is unknown, but I can say you that it's the forth coin that I known, two in PR65 and two in PR66, mine I got from an austrian collector, I bought him all the serie, 1,2,5 $ 10 cents, all in Proof PR66, minors values I already sold in $400 each to an uruguayan collector that already had the 10 cents in PR65. Third coin, in PR66, was sent in Ebay a couple of weeks ago, and forth in PR65 that I know already is in Austria, and dealer sell it for € 500. It's all information that I have, if you are really interested, I could consider an serious offer,
    regards
    Giancarlo
    [email protected]>>

    _____________________________________________________________________

    Soooooo... the count stood at:

    NEN (now mine) PF66
    Fermin (ebay seller) #1 PF66 a couple years ago
    Fermin (ebay seller) #2 PF66 a couple weeks ago
    Current ebay seller in Uruguay PF66 (via Austrian collector--who had whole set of minors)
    Uruguay collector PF65 (who bought all the minors from above Austrian)
    Austrian dealer PF65 (in a dealer's inventory in Austria and asking 500 Euro

    ______________________________________________________________________

    NEXT, I got silly and joined NGC so I could check out the population reports and this is what I got:

    MS coins: 2 graded 1 64 and 1 65
    PF coins: 27 graded, 3-64 9-65 14-66 and 1-67

    _____________________________________________________________________

    Lastly, on the fine advice of Dimitri, I went ahead and wrote to the Austrian Mint (I had hesitated given I only could use English, but he encouraged me anyway). I had a nice response from someone who sounded interested and let me know he would be checking the archives. I'll update if I get more image.


    I'd like to get ahold of the MS-65 to compare to the Proof version....

    I also checked out the NGC population for the gold 1930 10c pattern (mintage of 70 I believe) and NGC's pops say 2 graded, an MS-62 and an MS-63. I distinctly remember Goldbergs selling an MS-65, in 2008 if I remember correctly. I'm keeping my eyes open for that one!

    In any case, I would also like to see the 1930 aluminum-bronze proof as well.


    Well, an interesting diversion to say the least! I need to get back to my regularly scheduled coin pursuits. 2 more weeks and a big show in Tokyo, me with the weekend off, a cooperative husband ready to hang with the kiddos, and a pocketful of yen the aforementioned husband is not aware of image. Hopefully I will have my new computer figured out, and will have found my old camera to take some pictures.

    Cathy

  • Hey Stork, I dont mean to go OT on your thread but I havent encountered too many collectors into Uruguayan coins so I will ask here. Have you ever come across the gold version of the 1969 FAO Mil Pesos uruguayn coin. The silver is pictured below:

    image
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mumu: that's a pretty cool coin...I don't normally look at Uruguay coins, so I haven't noticed any gold ones. The closest I could claim for my normal collecting interests would be Peru, with it's history of Japanese immigration....

    And back to those silly 1936s... thanks to a new laptop I opened up yesterday (this old PC chick got a Mac! Which has it's email thingy so I've been consolidating), I've been cleaning out YEARS of old emails (I found some from Askari and JamminJ for those of you who are old around here). Anyway, I found my previous correspondence "Fermin-dude". It was only just last year, not that long ago:


    <<I bought about 95% of the coins(around 15 coins) that were found at the Vienna Mint several years ago. It was a very interesting group of specimen and proof coins that the Vienna Mint had struck as experimental patterns for numerous countries. Some were struck for China, these sets sell now for $4,000 +. Obviously Uruguay is not quite as popular. I have been sitting on all 15 coins. I did find where two other coins sold for $250 -$350, but this was probably two years ago and I have since discarded the auction catalogue. These were previously unknown to exist in any of the Krause catalogues. Let me know if you need anh more information. Best estimates are that mintage figures for this coin were 20 coins or so.

    Best,

    David Cloyed
    DC Numismatics, Inc

    - ferminadaza
    Did this answer your question? If not, let the seller know.



    1936A Uruguay 10 Centesimos Pattern NGC Proof 65
    Item Id: 110369315178
    End time: Apr-02-09 11:53:56 PDT
    Seller:
    ferminadaza (135)
    100.0% Positive Feedback
    Member since Jan-24-00 in United States
    Location: CA, United States
    Listing Status: This message was sent while the listing was active.>>

    ______________________________________________________________________

    AND, it appears I have Alzheimers...I just found THIS email buried in my stack. In 2008 it was Clark Smith selling the PF-64 on ebay and me asking my hugely redundant questions:

    <<You are correct. It's not listed in Krause. (to be honest, many coins should be in Krause but they don't list them, and their prices are far from correct in most cases).

    Probably NGC has more answers that I do at the moment.
    I don't have a regular coin to compare this one.

    Best Regards,
    Clark Smith


    --- On Sat, 7/26/08, eBay Member: shigellacat <[email protected]> wrote:
    From: eBay Member: shigellacat <[email protected]>
    Subject: Question for item #130235232212 - URUGUAY 10 Cents, 1936, rare proof, NGC Certified PR-64
    To: [email protected]
    Date: Saturday, July 26, 2008, 5:29 AM

    eBay sent this message to Clark Smith (clarksmith).
    Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. Learn more.

    Question about URUGUAY 10 Cents, 1936, rare proof, NGC Certified PR-64


    Do not respond to the sender if this message requests that you complete the transaction outside of eBay. This type of offer is against eBay policy, may be fraudulent, and is not covered by buyer protection programs. Learn more.



    Dear clarksmith,

    I was wondering if you had any more information on this coin...it's not listed in Krause (which has many limitations of course), and I'm curious about the diagnostics which make it a proof. I realize you are busy with all your auctions, but if you are able to provide any information I'd appreciate it!>>

    ______________________________________________________________________________

    So, with my faulty memory:

    ~2006 NEN sold a PF-66 to me
    2008 ClarkSmith sold the PF-64 on ebay
    2009 Ferminadaza sold a PF-65 on ebay and sounds like he has more, maybe 15 including this and the next--and I was counting this one as a 66, that faulty memory again...
    2010 Ferminadaza sold a PF-66 on ebay
    2010 Uruguay dealer (hobbies-corner) listing a PF-66 on ebay from an Austrian and reports an
    Uruguay collector who owns a PF-65 and bought other minors from the same Austrian collector
    Austrian dealer who is listing a PF-65 as well, and is allegedly asking 550 Euros

    I think was astonishes me the most about this is how many times I've asked about them... NEN, Ferminadaza (twice), posting here twice that I remember, Clark Smith, the current guy in Uruguay and now my pending email with the Austrian mint. And those are just the ones I found emails on...though really I think that's it. I don't empty my email like I should imageimageimage. For something I don't collect I would have to say it's been in the back of my mind for quite some time!

    I also just realized that I opened up this MacBook exactly on my 7th year anniversary of signing up here! April 15th 2003 to now. I'm even in the same time zone somehow... I'll have to pick up something cool at the Tokyo show for a belated giveaway in a couple weeks image.

    Cathy


  • laurentyvanlaurentyvan Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭
    Stork, Stork, Stork, this thread is exactly why I love posters like you and lordM-absolute attention to telling a great story!image

    I could go DPOTD on this quite easily.image
    One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics
    is that you end up being governed by inferiors. – Plato
  • Yeah its a great coin but the silver and the copper would look much better with the gold next to them:

    imageimage
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Stork, Stork, Stork, this thread is exactly why I love posters like you and lordM-absolute attention to telling a great story!image

    I could go DPOTD on this quite easily.image >>



    DPOTD? I would say not...more like an expose (how do I make that little accent thingy on the e???) on the fragility of the mental status of some coin collectors.

    As for you Dimiti, I am shocked, nay wounded.......well not really--that is actually pretty accurate image. Well, except for the OC part. I wrote poorly. When I said 'got' I meant 'found' for the population reports...I didn't mean to imply I'd gotten the coins. I only have one--so far, hmmmmmm but you are giving me ideas! Thanks again for the recommendation to write the mint, I hope to hear back from them soon. I can only hope there are records left, it was a tumultuous time period after all.

    And Mumu--gold always looks good in my opinion. I didn't check the date on your coin and was thinking 'how seventies, it would fit in with burnt orange shag carpeting and advocado appliances'. Then I noticed the date image. As one who spent her formative years on said shag carpeting, I like it!


    Cathy


  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,760 ✭✭✭
    Now I have mine in the mail on it way to meimage
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cool! Did you pry any more info out of him? I'm going to email back to 'the Austrian' (sounds like a character from Twin Peaks, for those who remember that one....) and see if he ever dug up anything.

    There are going to be several mints represented at the Tokyo coin show this weekend, but sadly not Austria.


    Cathy

  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,760 ✭✭✭
    I sent him an Email and am awaiting a response.image
  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,760 ✭✭✭
    Mine got here today and I was pleasantly surprised at the color. Iridescent greens on the obverse and a Rusty red glow to part of the rev. I hope I can capture it thought the plasticimage
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This guy didn't get the hint from the last auction closing..he RAISED his asking price...

    Still waiting on the Austrian mint. I also found another guy selling other Uruguay essais so I shot him an email too. We'll see.

    I'd love to see your pix Boz!


    Cathy

  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm glad to see you got yours image, and what a terrific photo!

    I finally got my response from the Austrian Mint:

    <<Dear Madam,

    We were not able to find any evidence in our archives. It may be possible, but we couldn’t find anything.

    Best regards
    Johann Hanslmaier
    Direct Marketing


    MÜNZE ÖSTERREICH AG
    AM HEUMARKT 1 · 1031 WIEN · ÖSTERREICH · POSTFACH 181
    TELEFON +43 1 717 15-165 · FAX +43 1 715 40 70 · MOBIL +43 664 9629814
    [email protected] · www.austrian-mint.at
    Firmenbuch Nr. FN 55543g, Handelsgericht Wien, UID-Nr.: ATU 37114706, ARA-Nr.: 7352, DVR: 0558826
    >>

    I wonder if it's because it's something else completely, or if the records are dim because it was 1936 and Austria...the mystery will remain awhile longer I suppose.


    Cathy

  • theboz11theboz11 Posts: 6,760 ✭✭✭
    Thank, I managed to get the rust color on the rev , but the Obverse cameo and color was impossible to get without reflection.

    Hope you find out the full story on these.image
  • mumumumu Posts: 1,879
    What are the diagnostics on the proofs?


  • << <i>Yes , I know of that one,,, Spoon and I have been trying to get him to reduce the price, but he will not come below $550 for it,,, to high for me.image >>



    I ended up buying his piece. He came down a fair amount though still priced well above what others went for, but his had cameo I had not seen on other pieces. Here are my pics. Needs to be reslabbed.




    image
    image
  • Better pics:

    image
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, somebody might know something...This one just closed on ebay in PCGS plastic and PCGS calls it a specimen.

    NGC and PCGS both are slabbing as something more than just an excellent business strike. I suppose there is no way to know if this one was previously in NGC plastic, or if it's a whole new one. I sense an email to an ebay seller in the making image.

    I wonder why I find these so fascinating???


    Cathy

  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • The coin is getting some attention, and rightfully so.
    image
  • StorkStork Posts: 4,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hah! Two more tidbits. The current seller of the PF-64 gave me a VERY brief answer-- basically (not an exact quote, I'm in a hurry to get to work) <<Paris Mint, mintage 70>> which I do wonder about given the prior correspondence. The seller of the SP-66 gave me the name of who he bought it from...I have met that person (and can't believe I missed the auction when he sold it....when I was being more involved it was a seller I would stalk).

    I see Uruguay has a new set of coins out and has revived the puma. I might have to get that one, and here I go slipping into coins again. I thought I had my impulses restricted to my medals and Japan. Of course, living in Spain it was inevitable I suppose that I would end up finding something new to chase. Plus, I have more time again.

    Cathy

    edited to fix spelling..and Peacemonkey

    << <i>The coin is getting some attention, and rightfully so. >>

    I was wondering, do you happen to know/like this coin? There seem to be a few fans image.

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