Why is the talk about the "Big One's" + designation, not its coin doctoring deterrent? Is
coinguy1
Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
<< <i>.....The PCGS Secure Plus process uses laser scanning to help detect coins that have been artificially enhanced since their last certification and can also be used to help identify stolen coins.... >>
This, to me, is potentially of much greater significance than the plus designation. Do you folks not believe it will work? And/or are you not concerned about coin doctoring? You should be.
Edited to add: Maybe a lot of people are disappointed because they care more about the money?
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<< <i>
<< <i>.....The PCGS Secure Plus process uses laser scanning to help detect coins that have been artificially enhanced since their last certification and can also be used to help identify stolen coins.... >>
This, to me, is potentially of much greater significance than the plus designation. Do you folks not believe it will work? And/or are you not concerned about coin doctoring? You should be. >>
no, good coin doctors will always find a way around it.
What I like about it (the + designation to me is not important and to me is just another step toward TPGs setting the price of coins rather than just grading them) is that I'd think if a Secure+ coin is stolen, cracked out and resubmitted to PCGS, they could recognize it as a particular serial number in their database -- and if that coin was reported as stolen. On the other hand, might they ruin these coins to make them unrecognizable as the same coin, maybe wearing it down some?
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
It should be interesting to see what kind of different spin this takes being PCGS' initiative.
Doctored coins in PCGS holders have burned me more than anything else in this hobby/business and have caused me to lose confidence in buying expensive coins.
Still I think it is neat, be neater if it was across multiple TPG's.
K
The vast majority of coins that are being doctored are raw coins that have never been seen at PCGS previously.
This new laser will do nothing to stem the flow of "new" coins being doctored. I am greatly disappointed.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
If so, what if a coin is submitted, sold, cracked out, then does some natural toning and is resubmitted? Will the new owner get a red light on it?
<< <i>OK, I'm Mr. Coin Doctor... I get a coin in a secure holder. Let's say it's a $25,000 coin. I have my magic pug dog lick the coin and it's a lock for an upgrade. I send it in under the non-secure service. and the coin is now 1 grade higher. Is PCGS going to scan every coin that comes in to see if it was cracked out and not resubmitted under secure service? >>
Very good point.....if a secure coin is resubmitted without the secureplus service then how would it get picked up? It certainly would be cost prohibitive for every coin being graded at the regular service level to be scanned so I don't see how this works? Couple that with the fact that only higher dollar coins would make since when using this new service and I don't see how this has any impact on 95% of the hobby but....I don't see any negative per say.
I suspect it is similar in this instance. A high resolution laser scan can “fingerprint” a coin and the database will permit matching (including a coin altered or damaged after the scan was made). But, the little “+” or “-“ signs will get all the collector hype.
<< <i>Sometimes the most valuable benefit is not among those being intensely marketed. The NGC and PCGS authentication is their most valuable service, but it’s barely mentioned because coin grading and packaging generates the real profits.
I suspect it is similar in this instance. A high resolution laser scan can “fingerprint” a coin and the database will permit matching (including a coin altered or damaged after the scan was made). But, the little “+” or “-“ signs will get all the collector hype. >>
I believe that the coin image lasering process is a technological breakthrough and has the potential to revolutionize the hobby. I also agree that the + on the slab will stir up a collector frenzy. I so often hear "buy the coin not the plastic", but so often see people coughing up big dough for the plastic, and not just the coin.
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what does it mean for coin doctoring deterrent?
if a doctor buys a coin for $5K and plays with it and resubmits, then what?
they send it back doctored? they place the guy on never can submit again list? they send a hit squad and snuff the guy? they press charges and try to get the guy in jail?
so the guy gets the coin back - and sends it to NGC and it gets in a slab and is sold
the buyer is a registry set owner and sends it in for crossover
and it comes back - altered since last submission
SO, does that mean eventually all good doctored coins will end up in NGC slabs
and PCGS slabs will have even greater premium over NGC than now?
does that mean registry set aggressors will stop buying for crossover coins?
1. Only coins that are sent into pcgs specifically for the pcgs secure plus will be scanned into a data base.
2. As of now it appears as if it would only benefit high end coins or registry sets, why would you send a common date morgan in for this service? Its not cost effective.
3. If you are a coin doctor and doctor a coin all you would need to do is send it in for a regular submission and the coin would not be scanned therefore not detering coin doctors at all.
Am I reading this wrong or am I missing something here? Tell me how that deters a coin doctor at all? It might deter coin doctors from doctoring coins that are already scanned but then again it depends on how the system works, a coin doctor alters the surface of a coin in order to secure an upgrade, how far will the coin doctor need to alter the surface of a coin in order for the system not to catch it as the same coin ?
<< <i>because I do not understand it
what does it mean for coin doctoring deterrent?
if a doctor buys a coin for $5K and plays with it and resubmits, then what?
they send it back doctored? they place the guy on never can submit again list? they send a hit squad and snuff the guy? they press charges and try to get the guy in jail?
so the guy gets the coin back - and sends it to NGC and it gets in a slab and is sold
the buyer is a registry set owner and sends it in for crossover
and it comes back - altered since last submission
SO, does that mean eventually all good doctored coins will end up in NGC slabs
and PCGS slabs will have even greater premium over NGC than now?
does that mean registry set aggressors will stop buying for crossover coins? >>
That's a fair point. But not understanding things doesn't usually stop people from asking and talking about them, right?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
1- There are a ton of doctored coins already in PCGS holders, and this doesn't address them
2- Other than coins with extremely high value, this process won't be used unless it's specifically paid for. For the service to be effective, it must be used on all coins. From what I understand, if a $50k coin is submitted without the extra fee, it isn't checked. Therefore, can't someone doctor a coin and not pay the extra fee? On the flip side, if they do check every coin, but not put the shield on without the fee, what's the point. They've done all the work, but they're withholding information unless the fee is paid.
I think this service can do many great things, but I see a big hole in the implementation, at least as far as I understand it.
Jeremy
think CAC stickers on PCGS holders now will "carry" a prem , like OGH, etc ??????
what happens with dipped coins? it was dark and now its white!- does that mean it gets agennie?
I for one, am very glad that PCGS is implementing this
Edited to add that I agree even more with airplanenut's post three spaces up
Steve
Once PCGS decided to change their grading system, why not start over and do it correctly rather than use a band-aid "+" sign...
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Now the laser scanning to thwart the docs and re-sub masters.......MAJOR SCORE!
Thank you PCGS.
<< <i>Now the laser scanning to thwart the docs and re-sub masters.......MAJOR SCORE! >>
Only if the resubmitter sends it in for the service. Otherwise, the docs and crackout artists can just submit for a non scanning service. Until EVERY coin submitted is scanned it only works if someone submits a coin at that service level.
Coin doctoring does not affect as many people as money does. I think collectors are concerned about doctoring but in the long run it does not play into what they collect. JMHO.
Ken
I can understand how the laser process could "fingerprint" a coin as to its metallic state ( nicks, scratches, corroded surfaces, etc.) But
I can not see where it might determine a change in toning. After all, toning can take place in a slab unless it is physically air tight, and I
didn't notice that mentioned, nor how they would test before each one left the processing if they did so claim.
If someone altered the surface by tooling, or mint mark alteration, yes, the laser process would do this I think. But AT ?????
Jim
<< <i>"This, to me, is potentially of much greater significance than the plus designation. Do you folks not believe it will work? And/or are you not concerned about coin doctoring? You should be."
Coin doctoring does not affect as many people as money does. I think collectors are concerned about doctoring but in the long run it does not play into what they collect. JMHO.
Ken >>
Ken, coin doctoring affects many people financially, whether they are aware of it or not.
<< <i>I can understand how the laser process could "fingerprint" a coin as to its metallic state ( nicks, scratches, corroded surfaces, etc.) But
I can not see where it might determine a change in toning. After all, toning can take place in a slab unless it is physically air tight, and I
didn't notice that mentioned, nor how they would test before each one left the processing if they did so claim.
If someone altered the surface by tooling, or mint mark alteration, yes, the laser process would do this I think. But AT ?????
Jim >>
it can't, watch the videos and you'll see that... the machine just determines it's the same coin then the finalizer compares the photos and sees the AT
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
exactly!!
The Big One is goodness...just not very beneficial today. But give it time.
Lance.
All you Coin doctors beware- we have insurance now to stop you from rifling our deep pockets, and PCGS is the new law in town.
Considering that most of the coins graded are U.S. I see the Feds wanting to be the back up to get the coin doctors off the streets- it is still illegal to mess with the monetary system of our great nation is it not? Call it 'doctoring' but the reality is it is an 'altered' U.S. coin, this will land you in jail.
You go PCGS- how much will it cost us in the long run
kind of like federal health care?