Image Manipulation or Not? Image added in first post.

laurentyvan

What I ordered was this:

What I received was the same coin, but my image this time. Was the image manipulated in order to sell the jeton? Or was the CGB photographer simply more skilled at his craft?


This last image was taken by me in a low light. My first images were in bright light. The last image is the truest to the jeton. In my first images I was trying to manipulate the colors to resemble CGB's. By the way, I think CGB's image is a knockout and one of the reasons I ordered the piece was to have that wonderful-looking patina, almost like leather. Well, there are no yellows and browns anywhere in that jeton.

ormandh

NO! it is a photo taken with incandescent lighting. The WB may be off a little. It also was taken in low lighting.

ormandh

It is basically the angle of lighting that changes the appearance more than anything.

FilthyBroke

CGB, right? No, if there is one thing that I've learned from them, it's to expect your coin to look darker, and less "yellow". It's their lighting setup, I guess. FWIW, I like your pics better, it looks nice and realistic.

Aethelred

I believe the ideal goal of a person photographing a coin should be to make the photograph appear as much like the coin as possible.

Having said that, things are not always that easy. What a coin looks like to the naked eye will vary with the lighting and with the eye.

Still, the goal should be to come as close as possible and where the seller falls short of that he he/she should explain the differences to the buyer. There is no doubt that in the case of the token below the seller's photo and yours look quite different (although one could argue which looks better as I think yours looks more natural). So I would say that the issue of manipulation is far less important that the issue of the seller offering something that looks so different that his photo.

JCMhouston

It looks to me like they just juiced the contrast and saturation a little.

ormandh

It looks fine to me. I think that the lighting angle and the low light covers up a lot of the flaws. That appears to be an original photo.

ormandh

I will add that your lighting appears to be at a lower angle which will accent every hairline. I would venture to say that it probably doesn't look as bad in hand.

laurentyvan

Well, I wasn't trying to mislead anyone but it's much easier to show the coins true colors (which are a lot brassier) under low light than bright light,
and I do use the reveal light bulbs.
I'm not sure how this jeton will image in sunlight-perhaps I'll try tomorrow.

I believe the ideal goal of a person photographing a coin should be to make the photograph appear as much like the coin as possible.

I couldn't agree with the dead king more! I recently purchased a 1926 Cameroon 50 Cmes from Aethelred and the picture he used was a little muddy but the detail looked fine.
In hand the coin looked better than the image but the image correctly represented the coin in texture and color. Could he have made it nicer-looking? Absolutely! But he didn't
and I respect that.

Not the first time this has happened to me with CGB but it will be the last!

Aethelred

<< <i>I couldn't agree with the dead king more! I recently purchased a 1926 Cameroon 50 Cmes from Aethelred and the picture he used was a little muddy but the detail looked fine.
In hand the coin looked better than the image but the image correctly represented the coin in texture and color. Could he have made it nicer-looking? Absolutely! But he didn't
and I respect that.
>>



Well, thank you Laurent! I try very hard to make sure that my photos are an accurate representation of what my customers will receive, I am sure that I sometimes fail, but I do try. There have been times where I have been ready to list a coin, but haven't because I found that my photo just didn't look enough like the coin did in person. I don't just deal in coins, I also collect them. I know what it is like to be excited about getting a coin, but to be dissapointed when you see it in hand and I don't want my customers to experience that feeling.

ormandh

I will say that even with the ability to take a "great" photo or a "fair" photo(in the the case of Aethelred's photo you say was accurate(?)) is misleading at best. I could take many photos of the same coin, without doing any manipulation to the photo, and I can guarantee you that each would be different in appearance and grade(surface wise). I, myself, make sure my coin pictures NEVER look better than the coin itself. But, in order to replicate a coin that has been circulated, or one that has color, or one that has luster different from the photo would require two different angles of the surfaces. Without more than one perspective of the coins surfaces you are basically gambling. But, I would argue that when you buy a coin based on the photos that it is the fault of the buyer. If I were to spend money on a high dollar coin then I would ask for a different angle of the said coin; then it would be the sellers fault for misrepresentation. JMHO.

ormandh

My point is that a coin seller is not necessarily a photographer. Even using Mark Goodman's book to follow, a person would need to know how to manipulate the coins surfaces to get the desired result. I am sure that there are many sellers that would take advantage of the ability of misrepresenting a coin, but I would probably argue that it is the case that they do NOT know how to take proper photos of their coins.

FilthyBroke

It has become a matter of "reading" their photos for me. They do provide excellent pictures (large and clear), just that the lighting is harsh and sometimes a little odd looking. I'll add that I've been pleased with my experiences with them overall.

laurentyvan

t has become a matter of "reading" their photos for me.

I think we all have to do that with coin images-it's tough for me with CGB-maybe I'll get better.
Several years ago I bought a Ceres head minor from CGB
dated in the 1880's with gorgeous blue toning.
When it arrived it was blast white, no color anywhere.
Well, we know what blast white on a 125 year old silver coin means...

But, I would argue that when you buy a coin based on the photos that it is the fault of the buyer.

You could argue that I suppose. I'm critiquing a company that has a huge website, outstanding catalogs, and photographs their 1000's of coins
on a regular basis for worldwide consumption. They have developed a skill set that allows them to present coins in the manner they wish.
I buy many coins online from folks who have little skill and their images correctly represent the coin.

Please don't think I don't like the jeton-I do, especially the subject matter! Just like to know what I'm getting.

Hussulo

I've seen this kind of coin/ token imaging before, where the coin/ token is flooded with a bright light at a certain angle.
It works well on proofs or gold but in most cases it hides scratches or small abrasions and in the case of copper, bronze and sometimes silver it does not represent the true colour of the coin/ token. Which is what has happened in the pictures by the seller.

Edited to add:

Just to give an example, this is the same kind of lighting imaging used on my 1928, Germany, Von Hindenburg Proof Gold Medal by the seller, but since the medal is proof-like without any scratches etc it is quite an accurate representation of it:

FilthyBroke

Here you go, Laurent.

I cut a couple of mine and pasted them onto CGB's old pics of the coins I bought from them, just to give you an idea of what we are looking at as far as their photo techniques. (I have tons of examples)









I have learned that their lighting setup is a little harsh and yellow, making the coins look lighter and shows less surface marking. Tell you the truth, before I order a coin from them I will adjust their pics in my photo program just to lessen the brightness and inspect the surfaces better. I'm glad that they provide such clear pictures, even with the difference in their actual look.

I don't know how much you have dealt with them, but a word on ordering from them - a couple of times I've actually received a different coin than the ones pictured. They tell you that in their fine print, but it does happen occasionally. The ones I received were just as nice, just not the same ones as the pics. I just thought I'd tell you of my experience with them, as I order from them often and have enjoyed what I have received.

-William

IloiloKano

<< <i>It looks to me like they just juiced the contrast and saturation a little. >>


No, not in my opinion. I analyzed the histograms for both sides of the jeton, and there is nothing abnormal that I could detect. Juicing contrast and saturation produces a rather easily detected change in a histogram, and the greater the juicing, the more obvious the abnormality.

I believe it was simply a matter of the lighting. Sometimes I've had to adjust an image in order to get it to look more like the coin in hand, but if I have to make too large an adjustment, I then feel compelled to state that the image has been adjusted for that purpose. I believe small adjustments to get the color right, without noting the same, is fine, but in the case of that coin, I didn't even see evidence of small adjustments.

Edited because the computer didn't type what I meant.

mnemtsas2

The original image is taken with the light (as near as possible) reflecting directly from the coin into the lens of the camera. I've found that this method tends to make a coin look 'dirty' and brings out and colour and contrast in the coin very strongly. It also tends to produce a largely false image of what the coin really looks like in hand. Below you can see two images of the same coin. The first is taken with the light angled slightly to the surface of the coin (and this is largely what the coin looks like in hand). The second is taken with the light reflecting from the surface of the coin directly into the lens of the camera. Note how it brings out all the colour of the coin but makes it look 'dirty' and shows strong contrast breaks in the surfaces of the coin.

Image 1 - Normal Lighting


Image 2 - Vertical "reflective lighting"