Prewar "rookie" cards

digicat

I was looking to pick up "rookie cards" of some old Giants greats like Mel Ott, Bill Terry, and Carl Hubbell. According to Beckett, they all have their rookie cards in 1933 Goudey, however I noticed that they have earlier cards with them in MLB uniforms.

Did Beckett get this right, or is this area open to interpretation?


I also notice that Beckett calls Babe Ruth's 1933 Goudey cards his "rookie cards," though the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth has been calld his rookie card as well, hence my hesitation at taking Beckett's word for it.

shagrotn77

This list should help you a bit, though it's just one man's opinion:

Baseball HOF Rookies

The problem with pre-war rookies is that the definition of a 'card' is wide open for interpretation. Do exhibits count? Or postcards? Strip cards that were only issued in sheets? There's a lot of grey area. Ruth's rookie card is widely recognized as his 1914-15 Sporting News issue. The Baltimore News card is a minor league card.

I actually think your best bet is to go to VCP, type in a player's name, and see what the earliest issue is that you consider a rookie card.

digicat

Thanks for the link!

Looks like they're using "rookie card" kinda loosly. While they're also factoring in minor league cards, they go grab things that we generally don't regard as "rookie cards" and adding them to the list to get it up to 5.

For example, with Harmon Killebrew, they list his 1955, 1956, 1958, and 1959 Topps cards as "rookie cards."

Smuggo

The Beckett definition is considered absurd by almost any regular pre-war collector IMO, but after all it is Beckett.

JHS5120

<< <i>The Beckett definition is considered absurd by almost any regular pre-war collector IMO, but after all it is Beckett. >>



I agree 100% Beckett is not a good reference for pre-war cards. Beckett should stick to 1980-present.

shagrotn77

<< <i>For example, with Harmon Killebrew, they list his 1955, 1956, 1958, and 1959 Topps cards as "rookie cards." >>



I just see it listed as 1955. Anyway, I haven't looked at this very closely yet, but these nationally-distributed traditional cards are, IMO, pretty safe to call rookies:

1909 T206 Zach Wheat
1933 Goudey Arky Vaughan
1934 Goudey Hank Greenberg
1939 Play Ball Ted Williams
1941 Double Play Phil Rizzuto
1941 Double Play Lou Boudreau
1941 Double Play Enos Slaughter
1941 Play Ball Pee Wee Reese

There are others, but these are on my short list for now.

digicat

<< <i>I just see it listed as 1955 >>



If you click on the name, you'll find a list of the top 5 "rookie cards" for that player.


For Ripken, they only list his 1980 and 1981 minor league cards, and don't even mention his 1982 Topps.

Smuggo

To piggyback on an earlier comment you have to decide what you consider a "card." I consider this my Ott Rookie Card, first appearance as a major leaguer on a nationally distributed product, but it is not a "card" to some people, it is an Exhibit. Personally I would rather have this than a '33 Goudey. I consider the 1926 Exhibit the Bill Terry rookie and the R315 the Hubbell rookie.

This question is a source of countless debates, all in good fun of course.



edit: poor spellin'

fkw

Beckett has their head in their A$$! Bigtime

Here is the true list

Hall of Fame Rookie Card List



edited to say, Shag beat me to the link...

PS The R315 Karl Hubbell rookie is seen on eBay from time to time, one sat with a BIN of under $100 for a long time last month with no takers.

yes his name is Carl, but the rookie says "Karl"

If you go for the Hubbell, dont be scared away from cards graded "A" (Authentic), the graders (PSA/SGC) are/were clueless on the R315 cards thinking they are factory cut, they came in strips of 3 and all are handcut on top and or bottom edges so should get the "A" graded IMO.


I also have the Frankie Frisch rookie FS if interested, the super rare one W519-2-2 (Ive seen 2 in 30+ years of collecting vintage)





Vintage..... Rookie card is the first one issued (oldest), not ONLY nationally distributed, heck most cards were not, T206's, E121, Bowman, Leaf, Goudey's, etc. were NOT nationally distributed.

And all collectibles found in the bible of our hobby, the ACC (American Card Catalog) Count! ie Postcards, premiums, pins, felts, etc.

Only cards I wouldnt use for a rookie is a multi player photo card, like the team composite premiums, or team picture cards, etc. (4-in-1 cards, yes)

digicat

Thanks for the input. Prewar's a totally different ball game than post-war, and looks like it'll be a whole heck of a lot more difficult to collect, both in finding the pieces and likely affording them.

fkw

Actually many of the PreWar rookies listed on that OLD CARDBOARD list are often found for under $150

Examples..... Billy Herman (I got one for $25 recently), Frisch, Hubbell (all the time), Appling, Bottomley, Carey, Combs, Cronin, Dean, Doerr, Durocher, Feller (all the time), Ferrell, Foxx (I just sold one for $150), Goslin, Greenberg (easy), Haines (easy), Harris (easy), Hartnett, G.Kelly, Lindstrom, Lopez, Newhouser (very cheap), Slaughter (easy), Traynor, Vaughan (super easy), Wheat (easy usually no premium), etc.



But then again, some will cost close to 6 figures ($100,000+) or more, ie. Ruth, Hill, Jennings, Young, J.Kelley, Lloyd, McGraw, Mendez, both Wrights.

Smuggo

Excellent insight Frank. Like I said everyone (well nearly everyone) has an opinion and there is no consensus. BTW what do you want for the Frisch?

digicat

<< <i>Actually many of the PreWar rookies listed on that OLD CARDBOARD list are often found for under $150 >>



Well then, I guess the hunt will be the most difficult part.

Hey FKW (your PMs are off), the Frisch on the OBBC site has his head tilted in the opposite direction as yours, how many different variations are there? How much does something like that run for?

fkw

There are 3 different W519 sets, W519-1, W519-2-1, W519-2-2.

Like many strip card set, some photos were reversed in related sets (Yellow background Frisch on the Oldcardboard site is a W519-2-1 and the pic are all reversed in that set (buttons on uniform are always on the right side of front seam on nonreversed photos)


asking $160 for the Frisch. (If it was from one of the other 2 related sets, it would be 1/2 that)

my site is centuryoldcards.com (I need to restock up on some sets)

W519-2-2's are IMO the toughest of all of the color strip cards, far tougher than the 1916 BigHeads.

The checklist in the SCD is all screwed up and Ive pointed it out to Lemke.

Below is my (older) description of the W519-2-2 set. I reported the cards about 7-8 years ago and had them first listed in the SCD. Back then and for a couple years after, there was only 2 different known (Frisch, Murphy)

""""RARE - These strip cards were only recently "discovered" (cataloged) in last 3 years, with 2 cards checklisted in the "2006 SCD Standard Catalog". Similar to W519-2-1, W519-1 Unnumbered, and W521 except the numbers (printed in blue) are different, and there are some slight color and design changes. Most likely a 10 card set (#11-#20). Now to date 9 different players are known, including Gleason #11, Marquard #17, Kreuger #19, Cravath #? (Cravath's card is misspelled "Gobby" with an "o" instead of the "a" seen in all the other related sets, the example seen was heavily trimmed and missing the card #, but will be either #15 or #18). 1 player is still unknown and will be either #15 or #18.

PS. The checklist in the newer SCD Catalog is wrong, I believe the cards listed as 12b, 13b, and 20b are really from the W521 set (W521's have black card numbers, otherwise very similar)""""

Saberman

Is that a card of Frisch, or Freddy Krueger?

fkw

Ha ha Ya, I used to post pics of it when Id see a post on ugliest cards.

Sorry to get off topic, but the Ruth is far more attactive. Its sometimes called the "Fireworks Ruth"