clarification...they play different positions. That's like asking would you rather have a top 1B or SS in baseball...the old Pujols vs Hanley fantasy baseball debate. Crosby scores goals but his #1 skill is being a playmaker, and oh yeah faceoffs are a big part of the game too and Crosby is rolling up a 56% clip this season...which is really good if you weren't aware. Although I recognize that Ovechkin is the premier goal scorer in the NHL, he's also a gunner of Allen Iverson like proportions.
Shot leaders from last season 1. Ovechkin - 528 2. E.Staal - 372 39. Crosby - 238
09-10 Shooting% Crosby - 18.6% Ovechkin - 14.8%
Smart teams tend to build up the middle...see Penguins, Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, J.Staal...or the Wings, Detroit/Swedish Elite - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, and an underrated V. Filppula.
<< <i>clarification...they play different positions. That's like asking would you rather have a top 1B or SS in baseball...the old Pujols vs Hanley fantasy baseball debate. Crosby scores goals but his #1 skill is being a playmaker, and oh yeah faceoffs are a big part of the game too and Crosby is rolling up a 56% clip this season...which is really good if you weren't aware. Although I recognize that Ovechkin is the premier goal scorer in the NHL, he's also a gunner of Allen Iverson like proportions.
Shot leaders from last season 1. Ovechkin - 528 2. E.Staal - 372 39. Crosby - 238
09-10 Shooting% Crosby - 18.6% Ovechkin - 14.8%
Smart teams tend to build up the middle...see Penguins, Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, J.Staal...or the Wings, Detroit/Swedish Elite - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, and an underrated V. Filppula. >>
I don't think the Iverson comparison is fair. It could be that Crosby would be the choice, but shooting efficiency shouldn't have anything to do with it. In BKB, a bad FG% really hurts your team because there's an exceptional chance that someone else on the floor could have gotten off a good shot if you elected to pass instead of hurling up an 18 footer with 12 seconds left on the shot clock. It's also hard to get an offensive rebound, which means that a bad shot really cripples your team. This is one of the big reasons why the statisticians who study this stuff rank Iverson (and others, like Ben Gorden) as just slightly above average players.
When you shoot in hockey, there's a very good chance that the puck was never going to go to the net anyway on that possession, so in that sense your team isn't really hurt by a bad shot. There's also the very real chance that your team could get their tape on a rebound and bang it in anyway. While Ovechkin may not be as efficient a scorer as Crosby, that efficiency (I don't think) correlates to team success to the extent that it does in basketball.
As an aside, why is it that the debates which mean absolutely nothing are the ones that always generate the most interest in the sports world? Crosby or Ovechkin? Who cares! No team is ever going to have the chance to choose between them, so the discussion is meaningless. It's like the 'Williams v Ruth' nonsense. Could anything really matter less? If you're a hockey fan, a much more interesting debate would be something like Weber v Suter, or Semin v Backstrom. These kinds of debates actually matter.
im not fond of crosby, everyone has so much praise for him. i can't see it. --You obviously have not seen him play or would not make such an absurd statement
I don't think the Iverson comparison is fair. It could be that Crosby would be the choice, but shooting efficiency shouldn't have anything to do with it.
fair enough. There isn't enough statistical data to suggest either as a pro or con either way. PuckProspectus formulated that their findings were neutral on the topic...but sure, putting SOG can create rebounds and goals and they can also get blocked and lead to odd-man rushes, PP stalls, and (I believe you are a Wings fan) so you know the importance of puck possession to your team and others like the Hawks. Getting SOG is a skill in of itself, but if you think about it, if he's putting 500+ SOG a year, he better be scoring 50 G a year. If Ovechkin were on a team devoid of offensive talent like say Nashville, then I'd definitely would want him to bomb away, because the alternatives are vastly inferior. On WASH he has a ton of offensive talent around him with Semin, Backstrom, Green, Knuble, Fleischmann, Laich etc. Personally I'll take Hossa's 40 G on 300ish shots over a bomber at $4M less per year, but I've got a thing for elite level scorers who back-check like they're a checking liner.
If you're a hockey fan, a much more interesting debate would be something like Weber v Suter, or Semin v Backstrom. These kinds of debates actually matter. Weber>Suter Backstrom>Semin
im not fond of crosby, everyone has so much praise for him. i can't see it.
that should be a tip-off for you to realize that you don't understand what you're watching.
Ninety percent of the people who answer 'Ovechkin' to this question do not know what 'forecheck' means. I'm being serious. They think Ovechkin 'looks cooler', or something, and decide that means he must be better than Crosby.
Not even a question... When you're the #1 center over a player of Malkin's skill set, then you ARE the franchise player. Ovechkin is great, but if I'm building a team, I put Crosby as my #1 center and build my lines around him. Crosby is Adam Oates, Guy Carbonneau and Mark Messier all rolled into one. Ovechkin is an acrobatic Brett Hull with a mean streak.
No-back-chechkin is Brett Hull who hits as stated before.
Crosby is not Messier and Adam Oates by a long shot. Adam Oates was one of the best passers of all time, and Crosby doesn't even come close to Messier. I would say Crosby right now is a step above Ron Francis, who was a great player.
Crosby is not Messier and Adam Oates by a long shot.
are you serious? Oates scored 25 G or more twice in his career. Crosby has scored at least 33 each year of his 5 year career, save for '07 when he only played 53 games. Crosby is 22 years old and has already captained a Cup winning team. When Oates was 22 he was in the ECAC. Crosby may now just be entering his prime, and those guys aren't even a fair comparison. They played in an era where defense was optional, stars never got hit, and with no salary cap. Totally different game now than it was in the 80's and early 90's. I'm not saying Crosby will have a superior career to that of Messier, but he's already better than Oates or Francis ever were.
Career Points per Game Francis - 1.04 Oates - 1.06 Messier - 1.07 Crosby - 1.35
No I'm not kidding you. Who did Oates play with in Detroit in 1988 ? Who were his linemates ? Who is Crosby playing with on the power play all the time ?
Points per game is a useless stat unless you look at who the person plays with. How about telling me Oates points per game when he had Hull and played on the power play all day long in St. Louis. Totally different story.
And if you're saying that Crosby plays defense the way Ron Francis did, then I totally disagree. Ron Francis was the total package when it came to playing in the both zones.
Using the points per game to assess the worth of a hockey player is useless.
How about Bernie Nichols points per game when he played with and without Gretzky ? How about Thomas Sandstrom when he played with and without Gretzky ? How about Rob Brown when he played with Lemieux ?
Adam Oates made some of the most unbelieveable passes I have ever seen. Along with Orr and Gretzky, I have yet to see anyone better. Crosby isn't even close to being the playmaker that Oates was. Crosby isn't close to being the all around player Francis was.
Crosby just so happens to play with some very good players, and plays on the power play all day long to get those stats. He has a great supporting cast. You don't win the Cup with just one player. He's got some studs around him.
<< <i> They played in an era where defense was optional, stars never got hit, >>
Are you serious ?
What era did Gretzky get leveled and stayed motionless on the ice for some time ? What era did Scott Stevens flattened Lindros and almost turn him into a vegetable ? What era did Thomas Sandstrom have his jaw broken by Dave Browns stick ? What era did stars like Rick Tochett, Wendall Clark, and Doug Gilmour beat the heck out of each other ? What era did Adam Graves wack Mario Lemieuxs glove and break his finger ? What era did Pierre Turgeon get flattened by the Penguins in the playoffs ? What era did Cam Neely of the Bruins have a bloodied face on numerous occasions ? What era did Chris Chelios make Brian Propp bleed on the ice, leading Ron Hextall to leave his crease and attack him ?
Who did Oates play with in Detroit in 1988 ? Who were his linemates ?
Wings '88-89 Yzerman - 65 G Gallant - 39 G MacLean - 36 G Barr - 27 G Klima - 25 G Burr - 19 G Oates - 16 G
Penguins '08-09 Malkin - 35 G Crosby - 33 G Sykora - 25 G Staal - 22 G Satan - 17 G Fedotenko - 16 G
I guess you haven't seen the collection of wingers the Pens are trotting out nightly. Crosby is rolling shotgun with a checking liner in Kunitz (or recently switched to Fedotenko), and the team's AARP rep in Bill Guerin at even strength, and yes some of the time, but not always, he's on the PP with Malkin. What, DET never rolled Oates out with Yzerman when they were behind? I highly doubt that. I'm not talking about Crosby or Oates or Francis being a better passer, I'm talking about as a player, you know all around. He might not be at Francis' defensive level yet, but he's you know...he's 22. Oates was never a good defender, and Francis' early career was before my time, but I doubt he came into the league as superior defender as an 18 year old. Yzerman didn't start playing defense until he was 30...when Bowman came aboard and forced him to, and guys like Gretzky and Lemieux never bothered. Again you're crossing different eras which never works.
Yeah, in that era stars never got hit. OK
uh most of those examples are from the 90's when the game started changing...I said the 80's where the Cam Neelys and Wendall Clarks were the exceptions at the forward position...and I said STAR players, meaning elite level players, not minor/semi stars like Propp, Tocchet, Graves, etc. Lindros is 6'4 250 and a hitter himself.
What era did Gretzky get leveled and stayed motionless on the ice for some time ?
you're talking about the McCreary hit? So he takes one hard open ice hit in a 20 year career by a noob trying to make a name for himself...ok. Bob Probert wasn't talking runs at Gretzky or Messier. Today there is little to no code, Cam Janssen takes runs at 5'9 170lb Patrick Kane every time the Hawks face the Blues, Dion Phadouche blindsides Okposo in exhibition games. That's what I'm talking about. Repetition for emphasis.
Propp and Tocchett not only played on 1987 team Canada that played a great three game series against the Russians, but also played on the 1987 Flyers who gave the 1987 Edmonton Oilers all they wanted in the Stanley Cup final.
In the 80's you still had Dave the Hammer Schultz, Bob Kelly making guys run scared. Gretzky said in 1981 when he visited the Spectrum and watched the big Flyers warm up that he decided that he was going to skate his fastest that night because he was so afraid of getting killed.
The 80's featured Dale Hunter, Chris Nilan, Dave Brown and many other goons who had no mercy on guys. Watch some tapes of the 80's rivalries between the Quebec Nordiques and Montreal Canadiens. That will change your idea of the early 80's. Watch the playoff game with the Flyers and Canadiens when they brawled before the drop of the puck in warm ups. Youtube it. The police had to come on the ice to break it up. What you see in todays hockey doesn't even come close to what we saw in the early 70's and early 80's. In the early 80's we were still coming out of the era of bench clearing brawls.
I watched Francis for years day in and day out. He was a terrific two way player and was deadly on faceoffs. I also watched Oates while he was a Bruin for years. Crosby will only get better and tougher as the years go by he is way ahead of Francis and Oates on my draft board . Messier he is not maybe someday but not close in the near future. I also watched Messier for years on the MSG network and he was money, tough and probably one of the greatest two way players that ever played. I love Ovechkin as a player but I just dont see him playing at this level for many more years? I could be wrong but he is a banger and its tough to play at that level for alot of years. Roenick did it but not for many years.
Watch some tapes of the 80's rivalries between the Quebec Nordiques and Montreal Canadiens. That will change your idea of the early 80's.
why? I'm a Hawks fan and grew up watching the Norris Division beating the crap out of each other in the late 80's and early 90's. Probert and Grimson and Kocur and Dave Manson cracking skulls nightly. The difference was they took their runs at each other. Enforcer vs enforcer, goon vs goon.
I love Ovechkin as a player but I just dont see him playing at this level for many more years? I could be wrong but he is a banger and its tough to play at that level for alot of years. Roenick did it but not for many years.
yeah as a Hawks and Roenick fan that's always been my comp for Ovechkin. Ovechkin is more talented, but they played the same reckless style, or at least Roenick did until that POS Derian Hatcher knee on knee'd him. After that hit Roenick was never the same, and someone needs to play that youtube clip for Ovechkin one of these days because he may be starring in a similar reenactment. One of these days he's going to take a run at the wrong guy...paging Steve Ott, Matt Cooke, Avery, Cam Janssen, or one of the other cheap shot artists. He doesn't seem to care though. If he'll stick out a knee on his own countryman & Olympic teammate(Gonchar) he'll do it to anyone.
Ovetchkin is a tremendous athlete, with a heart of a lion. He physically has the tools to be the greatest ever player, but his IQ level won't allow for it.
Ron Francis is probably the most underrated HOFer in any of the four major sports. He seems to be forgotten... There have been several all-time lists and Francis never makes any of them. But we look at the numbers and we see a 500 goal scorer (I was there that night!!!) and the second leading assist player in the history of the NHL. We see a guy that won Lady Byng awards, and two Stanley Cups with the Pens, and almost won another one with a Hurricanes team that was one of the biggest underdogs in sports history. The Franchise came in right out of Sault Ste Marie ready to play and he was a solid defensive forward from day one. He won one Selke Trophy, but easily could have won several. He scored 90 points in 82-83 with a 19 win Hartford Whaler team that had NO stars. He didn't get 59 assists from riding the coat tails of some high scoring star like Gretzky.
I like Crosby. I just don't know how you compare the two. Different eras. Different teams. Totally different types of situations. When Francis played with guys like Lemieux and Jagr he had some huge assist years, including 92 assists in 1995-96. He also was putting up 1.55 PPG and 1.34 PPG in some of those years. I've heard the criticism that he put up numbers because he played for so long. That is partially true. He played a long time. But, we can't fault Francis for playing 16 of his 23 seasons in small markets of Hartford and Carolina. If Crosby ever gets in the situation where he has marginal teammates I want to see him put up the numbers Ron Francis did. And if he does, I will be the first to give him his props. He's a great young star. But don't overlook The Franchise.
<< <i>Ron Francis is probably the most underrated HOFer in any of the four major sports. He seems to be forgotten... There have been several all-time lists and Francis never makes any of them. But we look at the numbers and we see a 500 goal scorer (I was there that night!!!) and the second leading assist player in the history of the NHL. We see a guy that won Lady Byng awards, and two Stanley Cups with the Pens, and almost won another one with a Hurricanes team that was one of the biggest underdogs in sports history. The Franchise came in right out of Sault Ste Marie ready to play and he was a solid defensive forward from day one. He won one Selke Trophy, but easily could have won several. He scored 90 points in 82-83 with a 19 win Hartford Whaler team that had NO stars. He didn't get 59 assists from riding the coat tails of some high scoring star like Gretzky.
I like Crosby. I just don't know how you compare the two. Different eras. Different teams. Totally different types of situations. When Francis played with guys like Lemieux and Jagr he had some huge assist years, including 92 assists in 1995-96. He also was putting up 1.55 PPG and 1.34 PPG in some of those years. I've heard the criticism that he put up numbers because he played for so long. That is partially true. He played a long time. But, we can't fault Francis for playing 16 of his 23 seasons in small markets of Hartford and Carolina. If Crosby ever gets in the situation where he has marginal teammates I want to see him put up the numbers Ron Francis did. And if he does, I will be the first to give him his props. He's a great young star. But don't overlook The Franchise. >>
This is a very well thought out and excellent analysis. You really had to watch Ron Francis to understand what a great two way hockey player he was. Having coached high school ice hockey, I know what it's like to have guys like Ovechkin who are so goal hungry that they forget their responsibilities in the defensive zone, and committment to backchecking.
Sorry Ron Francis is a great player yup but he played in the Adams division????? Hello Sabers and Nordiques who sucked just as bad as the Whalers. The Bruins and Canadians had some good teams. The 86 Whalers don't forget took the eventual (only because Steve Smith's goal that knocked the Oilers out) Stanley Cup Champions to 7 games oh and it was decided by an overtime goal( we probably would have won it if Francis had taken himself off the ice and didn't lose Torrie Robertson to injury). So don't sit and say poor Ron Francis. Kevin Dineen was a hell of a Hockey player and so wasn't Dave Tippett. Not Kurri and Anderson but he had some talent. Crosby is and will be twice the player Francis was. There is a reason why Francis is not mentioned in all time lists he just was never considered the best player on the ice at any time in his career.
<< <i> There is a reason why Francis is not mentioned in all time lists he just was never considered the best player on the ice at any time in his career. >>
Larry Robinson isn't considered on any all time lists either, and yet he only leads the entire NHL in career plus-minus.
I wonder why he is the all time leader in +/- ? He is also a defenseman and I think this is an offense discussion? But you don't have to convince me he is one of the best defensman to play the game? I take him over most and I doubt you get any argument from anyone. But you could easly win a Cup with Robinson as your number 1 defenseman but you are not winning a cup with Francis as your number 1. center No way how shape or form.
Nope he would be Steve Yzerman.. How does playing in the Gretzky Lemieux era stop him from winning the Selke? Olympics? He is on the ice in every key situation. Did you see the goal he redirected against the U.S. the other night? Yup he stinks an afterthought. I assume your joking . Crosby is and will be twice the player Francis is/was. I never said that Crosby was the best in the world but can you name me a better player. If I was starting a franchise and I could pick 4 centers past 30 years I don't think Francis makes it in my top 10 but Crosby does. I could think of 10 forwards I would take over him just in his era alone. BTW Crosby has 42 goals at this point. Francis never scored more 32 .
I can't make the argument whether Crosby is better than Francis. Too early. He might be. But if he is, it isn't by that wide of a margin. But what was mentioned about the Adams Division is a farce! The Sabres had Gilbert Perreault, Phil Housley, Dave Andreychuk, Mike Foligno, and Tom Barrasso. They were putting up 90-100 points every year, way before the OT loss points. And the Nords had the Stastny brothers, Real Cloutier, Michel Goulet, Dale Hunter, and more. For a good chunk of the 80's the Adams posted four teams with winning records out of five, and one year had no losing teams at all. I think it could be reasonably argued that not only was the Adams of Francis' time not the weakest, but it in fact was the strongest division. Teams like Edmonton could feast all season on Vancouver and the Kings, and the rest of the weak West, while the Adams teams just beat the hell out of each other. So, no, there weren't a lot of dominate teams, but they didn't suck either.
<< <i>. BTW Crosby has 42 goals at this point. Francis never scored more 32 . >>
You put way too much emphasis on goalscoring with Crosby. Brett Hull scored a lot of goals. So did Teemu Selanne. Heck, Denik Maruk scored 60 goals for the Capitals one year. Goalscoring is no measure of success.
Let me ask you, who would take as your center ? Marcel Dionne or Bobby Clarke ? If you say Dionne, then you are way off in your analysis of what makes a great hockey player.
Ron Francis was one of the best two way hockey players ever. Bobby Clarke has a better career plus-minus then Mario Lemieux and Mark Messier. Is Bobby Clarke on the same map as Lemieux and Messier ?
Playing defense and backchecking is just as important as setting up and scoring goals. Just ask Alexander Nobackcheckin from Russia.
I also don't think Crosby has much upside to him. Neither does Ovie. If I had to take a player to build my team around I would have to take Patrick Kane from Chicago. Just watch the way he handles the puck. And watch the way he can slow down the game the way Mario used to. I think Crosby is one of the top centers in the game. I don't think Francis was because he played in an era with so many great centers.
I like Crosby. I just don't know how you compare the two. Different eras. Different teams. Totally different types of situations.
you can't. I've been telling him that this entire thread but he doesn't want to seem to listen.
If I had to take a player to build my team around I would have to take Patrick Kane from Chicago.
well if you're taking Kane over Parise then it's hard to take anything you say seriously. Even as a Hawks fan that's absurd. Kane is great of course, but he doesn't play any defense whatsoever, and Parise is outstanding in his own zone. Kane has improved in that he actually attempts to back-check now, but he attempts like Steve Larmer attempted which is barely at all. Parise, like Toews, is relentless. Parise is the best American born (non-goalie) player and it isn't that close...there isn't anything that he doesn't do well...unless you're a mouthbreather and you expect him to drop the gloves.
<< <i>. BTW Crosby has 42 goals at this point. Francis never scored more 32 . >>
You put way too much emphasis on goalscoring with Crosby. Brett Hull scored a lot of goals. So did Teemu Selanne. Heck, Denik Maruk scored 60 goals for the Capitals one year. Goalscoring is no measure of success.
Let me ask you, who would take as your center ? Marcel Dionne or Bobby Clarke ? If you say Dionne, then you are way off in your analysis of what makes a great hockey player.
Ron Francis was one of the best two way hockey players ever. Bobby Clarke has a better career plus-minus then Mario Lemieux and Mark Messier. Is Bobby Clarke on the same map as Lemieux and Messier ?
Playing defense and backchecking is just as important as setting up and scoring goals. Just ask Alexander Nobackcheckin from Russia. >>
Ovechkin must be doing something right he is leading the league in +/-? Goal scoring is no measure of success? Ok. Bobby Clarke was a great hockey player but and only because I will take 700+ career goals on some pretty sorry teams then a tough guy from some really good teams? Just my preference but I would take both over Francis along with Lemieux,Yzerman,Sakic,Modano,Sundin,Messier,Gretzky,Turgeon,Gilmour,Larionov,Federov,Crosby Sorry Ron Francis does nothing for me maybe because I watched him day in and day out for 10 years and he never ever wowed me with a big move or a big hit or something nothing zilch....To the OT I would take Ovechkin to start my franchise right now if I had to pick.
OK - I will admit that if I had to choose between Ron Francis and Sidney Crosby and Ovechkin to start a franchise with today, Francis would be my third choice. Of course, Ron Francis is 46 years old...
<< Sorry Ron Francis does nothing for me maybe because I watched him day in and day out for 10 years and he never ever wowed me with a big move or a big hit or something nothing zilch..... >>
Same thing with Crosby. He hasn't wowed me with a big hit. He doesn't wow me with anything. If going around immobile defensemen from Russia wows people, then so be it. How did he do against the USA ? Looks like Pronger and Neidermeyer had a lot tougher time with Kane and Parise then the USA defense had with Crosby.
Let's put it this way.... Who was more important in the USA's game against Canada ? Chris Drury or Sidney Crosby ? Hockey is just like the game of chess, and keeping pucks out of your own net is just as important as putting them in the oppositions.
Watch both Parise and Kane shine over Crosby on Sunday. As a matter of fact, after Sunday the Canadien fans will be saying the same thing most hockey fans say, like, "Oh, we're still better because we have guys who can score"....when the fact of the matter is that the USA is much better at defending then they are.
Why did the Devils win so many cups without any great goalscorers ? Didn't seem like goalscoring was that important to them.
Crosby is great, but seems to be a whiny little !@#$%. Ovechkin is great up front and and will hit. Doesn't seem to cry as much as Cindy, but he is Russian so it is just a matter of time.
As a Gopher fan I used to hate them, but if I were an expansion team I'd take Parise or Toews. Both play with dignity and are pretty good.
I can't stand Sidney Crosby either, but we all might as well get used to seeing him pot big goals because it's going to keep happening for the next 15 years. The fact remains that he's probably the best player in the NHL right now, and he's only going to get better.
How many times was Jumbo Joe's number called tonight? Anyone keeping score?
<< <i>Crosby is great, but seems to be a whiny little !@#$%. Ovechkin is great up front and and will hit. Doesn't seem to cry as much as Cindy, but he is Russian so it is just a matter of time.
As a Gopher fan I used to hate them, but if I were an expansion team I'd take Parise or Toews. Both play with dignity and are pretty good. >>
I was very impressed with Parise. Great two way player.
Crosby is real good but may be a little overrated.
I don't like Ovechkin because of his dirty play.
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
<< <i>I can't stand Sidney Crosby either, but we all might as well get used to the fact remains that he's probably the best player in the NHL right now, and he's only going to get better.
? >>
Ryan Miller named tournament MVP.
Sidney Crosby not named to the all star tournament team.
What Olympics did you watch ?
Jonathan Toews was clearly the best player for Canada. How can you be the best player in the NHL when you weren't even the best player for your country ?
Sidney was invisible against team USA in both games. How did he do on that breakaway when Patrick Kane caught him from behind ? Ryan Keslers line ate up his line. Best player in the NHL ??? The NHL doesn't have a best player right now. It has a lot of good young players, but no one can carry the title as the best. To say so is just ridiculous. There is no Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr in the NHL right now.
<< <i>I can't stand Sidney Crosby either, but we all might as well get used to the fact remains that he's probably the best player in the NHL right now, and he's only going to get better.
? >>
Ryan Miller named tournament MVP.
Sidney Crosby not named to the all star tournament team.
What Olympics did you watch ?
Jonathan Toews was clearly the best player for Canada. How can you be the best player in the NHL when you weren't even the best player for your country ?
Sidney was invisible against team USA in both games. How did he do on that breakaway when Patrick Kane caught him from behind ? Ryan Keslers line ate up his line. Best player in the NHL ??? The NHL doesn't have a best player right now. It has a lot of good young players, but no one can carry the title as the best. To say so is just ridiculous. There is no Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr in the NHL right now. >>
"Gold is money, and nothing else" (JP Morgan, 1912)
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
<< <i>I can't stand Sidney Crosby either, but we all might as well get used to the fact remains that he's probably the best player in the NHL right now, and he's only going to get better.
? >>
Ryan Miller named tournament MVP.
Sidney Crosby not named to the all star tournament team.
What Olympics did you watch ?
Jonathan Toews was clearly the best player for Canada. How can you be the best player in the NHL when you weren't even the best player for your country ?
Sidney was invisible against team USA in both games. How did he do on that breakaway when Patrick Kane caught him from behind ? Ryan Keslers line ate up his line. Best player in the NHL ??? The NHL doesn't have a best player right now. It has a lot of good young players, but no one can carry the title as the best. To say so is just ridiculous. There is no Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr in the NHL right now. >>
This is why I try to stay out of threads like this. One time:
I'm speaking of the NHL. I'm not speaking of a six game tournament (or seven for the Canadians) which featured NHL players. There is a difference. If Pujols hits .180 in the 2010 WS and Ortiz hits .430 with five HR's and is named MVP, does that mean that Ortiz is a better player than Pujols? I mean, come on.
Sidney Crosby is a very, very good hockey player. He is, in fact, probably the best player currently active, and if he's not the best he's at least in the conversation. I have absolutely no interest in getting involved in a 'who's better' discussion, for reasons I've outlined earlier. If you don't think Crosby is the best player in the NHL, then that's fine. Reasonable people can disagree. If you think he's not in the conversation then I think there's probably a lot about hockey that you don't understand.
DrLou
Posts: 250
Comments
Shot leaders from last season
1. Ovechkin - 528
2. E.Staal - 372
39. Crosby - 238
09-10 Shooting%
Crosby - 18.6%
Ovechkin - 14.8%
Smart teams tend to build up the middle...see Penguins, Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, J.Staal...or the Wings, Detroit/Swedish Elite - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, and an underrated V. Filppula.
<< <i>Well, I've submitted your answer and it has come back incorrect. The correct answer is Malkin >>
I hate Malkin... super douche.
fail
<< <i>clarification...they play different positions. That's like asking would you rather have a top 1B or SS in baseball...the old Pujols vs Hanley fantasy baseball debate. Crosby scores goals but his #1 skill is being a playmaker, and oh yeah faceoffs are a big part of the game too and Crosby is rolling up a 56% clip this season...which is really good if you weren't aware. Although I recognize that Ovechkin is the premier goal scorer in the NHL, he's also a gunner of Allen Iverson like proportions.
Shot leaders from last season
1. Ovechkin - 528
2. E.Staal - 372
39. Crosby - 238
09-10 Shooting%
Crosby - 18.6%
Ovechkin - 14.8%
Smart teams tend to build up the middle...see Penguins, Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, J.Staal...or the Wings, Detroit/Swedish Elite - Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, and an underrated V. Filppula. >>
I don't think the Iverson comparison is fair. It could be that Crosby would be the choice, but shooting efficiency shouldn't have anything to do with it. In BKB, a bad FG% really hurts your team because there's an exceptional chance that someone else on the floor could have gotten off a good shot if you elected to pass instead of hurling up an 18 footer with 12 seconds left on the shot clock. It's also hard to get an offensive rebound, which means that a bad shot really cripples your team. This is one of the big reasons why the statisticians who study this stuff rank Iverson (and others, like Ben Gorden) as just slightly above average players.
When you shoot in hockey, there's a very good chance that the puck was never going to go to the net anyway on that possession, so in that sense your team isn't really hurt by a bad shot. There's also the very real chance that your team could get their tape on a rebound and bang it in anyway. While Ovechkin may not be as efficient a scorer as Crosby, that efficiency (I don't think) correlates to team success to the extent that it does in basketball.
As an aside, why is it that the debates which mean absolutely nothing are the ones that always generate the most interest in the sports world? Crosby or Ovechkin? Who cares! No team is ever going to have the chance to choose between them, so the discussion is meaningless. It's like the 'Williams v Ruth' nonsense. Could anything really matter less? If you're a hockey fan, a much more interesting debate would be something like Weber v Suter, or Semin v Backstrom. These kinds of debates actually matter.
fair enough. There isn't enough statistical data to suggest either as a pro or con either way. PuckProspectus formulated that their findings were neutral on the topic...but sure, putting SOG can create rebounds and goals and they can also get blocked and lead to odd-man rushes, PP stalls, and (I believe you are a Wings fan) so you know the importance of puck possession to your team and others like the Hawks. Getting SOG is a skill in of itself, but if you think about it, if he's putting 500+ SOG a year, he better be scoring 50 G a year. If Ovechkin were on a team devoid of offensive talent like say Nashville, then I'd definitely would want him to bomb away, because the alternatives are vastly inferior. On WASH he has a ton of offensive talent around him with Semin, Backstrom, Green, Knuble, Fleischmann, Laich etc. Personally I'll take Hossa's 40 G on 300ish shots over a bomber at $4M less per year, but I've got a thing for elite level scorers who back-check like they're a checking liner.
If you're a hockey fan, a much more interesting debate would be something like Weber v Suter, or Semin v Backstrom. These kinds of debates actually matter.
Weber>Suter
Backstrom>Semin
im not fond of crosby, everyone has so much praise for him. i can't see it.
that should be a tip-off for you to realize that you don't understand what you're watching.
Ninety percent of the people who answer 'Ovechkin' to this question do not know what 'forecheck' means. I'm being serious. They think Ovechkin 'looks cooler', or something, and decide that means he must be better than Crosby.
yep, and the other 10% think that because Ovechkin lands big hits on players he's an elite defender.
Crosby is not Messier and Adam Oates by a long shot. Adam Oates was one of the best passers of all time, and Crosby
doesn't even come close to Messier. I would say Crosby right now is a step above Ron Francis, who was a great player.
are you serious? Oates scored 25 G or more twice in his career. Crosby has scored at least 33 each year of his 5 year career, save for '07 when he only played 53 games. Crosby is 22 years old and has already captained a Cup winning team. When Oates was 22 he was in the ECAC. Crosby may now just be entering his prime, and those guys aren't even a fair comparison. They played in an era where defense was optional, stars never got hit, and with no salary cap. Totally different game now than it was in the 80's and early 90's. I'm not saying Crosby will have a superior career to that of Messier, but he's already better than Oates or Francis ever were.
Career Points per Game
Francis - 1.04
Oates - 1.06
Messier - 1.07
Crosby - 1.35
Who is Crosby playing with on the power play all the time ?
Points per game is a useless stat unless you look at who the person plays with. How about telling me Oates
points per game when he had Hull and played on the power play all day long in St. Louis. Totally different story.
And if you're saying that Crosby plays defense the way Ron Francis did, then I totally disagree. Ron Francis was
the total package when it came to playing in the both zones.
Using the points per game to assess the worth of a hockey player is useless.
How about Bernie Nichols points per game when he played with and without Gretzky ? How about Thomas Sandstrom when
he played with and without Gretzky ? How about Rob Brown when he played with Lemieux ?
Adam Oates made some of the most unbelieveable passes I have ever seen. Along with Orr and Gretzky, I have yet to see anyone
better. Crosby isn't even close to being the playmaker that Oates was. Crosby isn't close to being the all around player Francis was.
Crosby just so happens to play with some very good players, and plays on the power play all day long to get those stats.
He has a great supporting cast. You don't win the Cup with just one player. He's got some studs around him.
<< <i> They played in an era where defense was optional, stars never got hit, >>
Are you serious ?
What era did Gretzky get leveled and stayed motionless on the ice for some time ?
What era did Scott Stevens flattened Lindros and almost turn him into a vegetable ?
What era did Thomas Sandstrom have his jaw broken by Dave Browns stick ?
What era did stars like Rick Tochett, Wendall Clark, and Doug Gilmour beat the heck out of each other ?
What era did Adam Graves wack Mario Lemieuxs glove and break his finger ?
What era did Pierre Turgeon get flattened by the Penguins in the playoffs ?
What era did Cam Neely of the Bruins have a bloodied face on numerous occasions ?
What era did Chris Chelios make Brian Propp bleed on the ice, leading Ron Hextall to leave his crease and attack him ?
Yeah, in that era stars never got hit. OK
Wings '88-89
Yzerman - 65 G
Gallant - 39 G
MacLean - 36 G
Barr - 27 G
Klima - 25 G
Burr - 19 G
Oates - 16 G
Penguins '08-09
Malkin - 35 G
Crosby - 33 G
Sykora - 25 G
Staal - 22 G
Satan - 17 G
Fedotenko - 16 G
I guess you haven't seen the collection of wingers the Pens are trotting out nightly. Crosby is rolling shotgun with a checking liner in Kunitz (or recently switched to Fedotenko), and the team's AARP rep in Bill Guerin at even strength, and yes some of the time, but not always, he's on the PP with Malkin. What, DET never rolled Oates out with Yzerman when they were behind? I highly doubt that. I'm not talking about Crosby or Oates or Francis being a better passer, I'm talking about as a player, you know all around. He might not be at Francis' defensive level yet, but he's you know...he's 22. Oates was never a good defender, and Francis' early career was before my time, but I doubt he came into the league as superior defender as an 18 year old. Yzerman didn't start playing defense until he was 30...when Bowman came aboard and forced him to, and guys like Gretzky and Lemieux never bothered. Again you're crossing different eras which never works.
Yeah, in that era stars never got hit. OK
uh most of those examples are from the 90's when the game started changing...I said the 80's where the Cam Neelys and Wendall Clarks were the exceptions at the forward position...and I said STAR players, meaning elite level players, not minor/semi stars like Propp, Tocchet, Graves, etc. Lindros is 6'4 250 and a hitter himself.
What era did Gretzky get leveled and stayed motionless on the ice for some time ?
you're talking about the McCreary hit? So he takes one hard open ice hit in a 20 year career by a noob trying to make a name for himself...ok. Bob Probert wasn't talking runs at Gretzky or Messier. Today there is little to no code, Cam Janssen takes runs at 5'9 170lb Patrick Kane every time the Hawks face the Blues, Dion Phadouche blindsides Okposo in exhibition games. That's what I'm talking about. Repetition for emphasis.
also played on the 1987 Flyers who gave the 1987 Edmonton Oilers all they wanted in the Stanley Cup final.
In the 80's you still had Dave the Hammer Schultz, Bob Kelly making guys run scared. Gretzky said in 1981 when he visited the Spectrum
and watched the big Flyers warm up that he decided that he was going to skate his fastest that night because he was so afraid of getting killed.
The 80's featured Dale Hunter, Chris Nilan, Dave Brown and many other goons who had no mercy on guys. Watch some tapes
of the 80's rivalries between the Quebec Nordiques and Montreal Canadiens. That will change your idea of the early 80's.
Watch the playoff game with the Flyers and Canadiens when they brawled before the drop of the puck in warm ups. Youtube it.
The police had to come on the ice to break it up. What you see in todays hockey doesn't even come close to what we saw in the
early 70's and early 80's. In the early 80's we were still coming out of the era of bench clearing brawls.
I also watched Oates while he was a Bruin for years.
Crosby will only get better and tougher as the years go by he is way ahead of Francis and Oates on my draft board .
Messier he is not maybe someday but not close in the near future. I also watched Messier for years on the MSG network
and he was money, tough and probably one of the greatest two way players that ever played.
I love Ovechkin as a player but I just dont see him playing at this level for many more years? I could be wrong but
he is a banger and its tough to play at that level for alot of years. Roenick did it but not for many years.
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why? I'm a Hawks fan and grew up watching the Norris Division beating the crap out of each other in the late 80's and early 90's. Probert and Grimson and Kocur and Dave Manson cracking skulls nightly. The difference was they took their runs at each other. Enforcer vs enforcer, goon vs goon.
I love Ovechkin as a player but I just dont see him playing at this level for many more years? I could be wrong but he is a banger and its tough to play at that level for alot of years. Roenick did it but not for many years.
yeah as a Hawks and Roenick fan that's always been my comp for Ovechkin. Ovechkin is more talented, but they played the same reckless style, or at least Roenick did until that POS Derian Hatcher knee on knee'd him. After that hit Roenick was never the same, and someone needs to play that youtube clip for Ovechkin one of these days because he may be starring in a similar reenactment. One of these days he's going to take a run at the wrong guy...paging Steve Ott, Matt Cooke, Avery, Cam Janssen, or one of the other cheap shot artists. He doesn't seem to care though. If he'll stick out a knee on his own countryman & Olympic teammate(Gonchar) he'll do it to anyone.
Ovetchkin is a tremendous athlete, with a heart of a lion. He physically has the tools to be the greatest ever player, but his IQ level won't allow for it.
I like Crosby. I just don't know how you compare the two. Different eras. Different teams. Totally different types of situations. When Francis played with guys like Lemieux and Jagr he had some huge assist years, including 92 assists in 1995-96. He also was putting up 1.55 PPG and 1.34 PPG in some of those years. I've heard the criticism that he put up numbers because he played for so long. That is partially true. He played a long time. But, we can't fault Francis for playing 16 of his 23 seasons in small markets of Hartford and Carolina. If Crosby ever gets in the situation where he has marginal teammates I want to see him put up the numbers Ron Francis did. And if he does, I will be the first to give him his props. He's a great young star. But don't overlook The Franchise.
<< <i>Ron Francis is probably the most underrated HOFer in any of the four major sports. He seems to be forgotten... There have been several all-time lists and Francis never makes any of them. But we look at the numbers and we see a 500 goal scorer (I was there that night!!!) and the second leading assist player in the history of the NHL. We see a guy that won Lady Byng awards, and two Stanley Cups with the Pens, and almost won another one with a Hurricanes team that was one of the biggest underdogs in sports history. The Franchise came in right out of Sault Ste Marie ready to play and he was a solid defensive forward from day one. He won one Selke Trophy, but easily could have won several. He scored 90 points in 82-83 with a 19 win Hartford Whaler team that had NO stars. He didn't get 59 assists from riding the coat tails of some high scoring star like Gretzky.
I like Crosby. I just don't know how you compare the two. Different eras. Different teams. Totally different types of situations. When Francis played with guys like Lemieux and Jagr he had some huge assist years, including 92 assists in 1995-96. He also was putting up 1.55 PPG and 1.34 PPG in some of those years. I've heard the criticism that he put up numbers because he played for so long. That is partially true. He played a long time. But, we can't fault Francis for playing 16 of his 23 seasons in small markets of Hartford and Carolina. If Crosby ever gets in the situation where he has marginal teammates I want to see him put up the numbers Ron Francis did. And if he does, I will be the first to give him his props. He's a great young star. But don't overlook The Franchise. >>
This is a very well thought out and excellent analysis. You really had to watch Ron Francis to understand what a great two way hockey player he was. Having coached high school ice hockey, I know what it's like to have guys like Ovechkin who are so goal hungry that they forget their responsibilities in the defensive zone, and committment to backchecking.
sucked just as bad as the Whalers. The Bruins and Canadians had some good teams. The 86 Whalers don't forget took the
eventual (only because Steve Smith's goal that knocked the Oilers out) Stanley Cup Champions to 7 games oh and it
was decided by an overtime goal( we probably would have won it if Francis had taken himself off the ice and didn't lose Torrie Robertson to injury). So don't sit and say poor Ron Francis. Kevin Dineen was a hell of a Hockey player and so wasn't Dave Tippett.
Not Kurri and Anderson but he had some talent. Crosby is and will be twice the player Francis was.
There is a reason why Francis is not mentioned in all time lists he just was never considered the best player on the ice at any time
in his career.
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Crosby is a team player all the way. He doesn't play for personal glory. Crosby just wants to win.
<< <i>
There is a reason why Francis is not mentioned in all time lists he just was never considered the best player on the ice at any time
in his career. >>
Larry Robinson isn't considered on any all time lists either, and yet he only leads the entire NHL in career plus-minus.
is an offense discussion? But you don't have to convince me he is one of the best defensman
to play the game? I take him over most and I doubt you get any argument from anyone. But you could easly
win a Cup with Robinson as your number 1 defenseman but you are not winning a cup with Francis as your number 1.
center No way how shape or form.
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Have you been watching the Olympics ? Care to explain how he's the best ?
The Olympics is the best against the best. Is Crosby head and shoulders above the best ?
Ron Francis just so happened to play in an era with Gretzky and Lemieux. If Crosby played
in that era, he would be an afterthought.
Olympics? He is on the ice in every key situation. Did you see the goal he redirected against the U.S. the other night?
Yup he stinks an afterthought. I assume your joking .
Crosby is and will be twice the player Francis is/was. I never said
that Crosby was the best in the world but can you name me a better player. If I was starting a franchise and I could pick 4 centers past 30 years I don't
think Francis makes it in my top 10 but Crosby does. I could think of 10 forwards I would take over him just in his era alone. BTW Crosby has 42 goals
at this point. Francis never scored more 32 .
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<< <i>. BTW Crosby has 42 goals
at this point. Francis never scored more 32 . >>
You put way too much emphasis on goalscoring with Crosby. Brett Hull scored a lot of goals. So did Teemu Selanne.
Heck, Denik Maruk scored 60 goals for the Capitals one year. Goalscoring is no measure of success.
Let me ask you, who would take as your center ? Marcel Dionne or Bobby Clarke ? If you say Dionne, then you are way
off in your analysis of what makes a great hockey player.
Ron Francis was one of the best two way hockey players ever. Bobby Clarke has a better career plus-minus
then Mario Lemieux and Mark Messier. Is Bobby Clarke on the same map as Lemieux and Messier ?
Playing defense and backchecking is just as important as setting up and scoring goals. Just ask Alexander Nobackcheckin from Russia.
around I would have to take Patrick Kane from Chicago. Just watch the way he handles the puck. And watch the way he can
slow down the game the way Mario used to. I think Crosby is one of the top centers in the game. I don't think Francis was
because he played in an era with so many great centers.
you can't. I've been telling him that this entire thread but he doesn't want to seem to listen.
If I had to take a player to build my team around I would have to take Patrick Kane from Chicago.
well if you're taking Kane over Parise then it's hard to take anything you say seriously. Even as a Hawks fan that's absurd. Kane is great of course, but he doesn't play any defense whatsoever, and Parise is outstanding in his own zone. Kane has improved in that he actually attempts to back-check now, but he attempts like Steve Larmer attempted which is barely at all. Parise, like Toews, is relentless. Parise is the best American born (non-goalie) player and it isn't that close...there isn't anything that he doesn't do well...unless you're a mouthbreather and you expect him to drop the gloves.
<< <i>
<< <i>. BTW Crosby has 42 goals
at this point. Francis never scored more 32 . >>
You put way too much emphasis on goalscoring with Crosby. Brett Hull scored a lot of goals. So did Teemu Selanne.
Heck, Denik Maruk scored 60 goals for the Capitals one year. Goalscoring is no measure of success.
Let me ask you, who would take as your center ? Marcel Dionne or Bobby Clarke ? If you say Dionne, then you are way
off in your analysis of what makes a great hockey player.
Ron Francis was one of the best two way hockey players ever. Bobby Clarke has a better career plus-minus
then Mario Lemieux and Mark Messier. Is Bobby Clarke on the same map as Lemieux and Messier ?
Playing defense and backchecking is just as important as setting up and scoring goals. Just ask Alexander Nobackcheckin from Russia. >>
Ovechkin must be doing something right he is leading the league in +/-? Goal scoring is no measure of success? Ok.
Bobby Clarke was a great hockey player but and only because I will take 700+ career goals on some pretty sorry teams
then a tough guy from some really good teams? Just my preference but I would take both over Francis along with
Lemieux,Yzerman,Sakic,Modano,Sundin,Messier,Gretzky,Turgeon,Gilmour,Larionov,Federov,Crosby
Sorry Ron Francis does nothing for me maybe because I watched him day in and day out for 10 years and he never ever wowed me with a
big move or a big hit or something nothing zilch....To the OT I would take Ovechkin to start my franchise right now if I had to pick.
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Sorry Ron Francis does nothing for me maybe because I watched him day in and day out for 10 years and he never ever wowed me with a
big move or a big hit or something nothing zilch..... >>
Same thing with Crosby. He hasn't wowed me with a big hit. He doesn't wow me with anything. If going around immobile defensemen from Russia wows people, then so be it. How did he do against the USA ? Looks like Pronger and Neidermeyer had a lot tougher time
with Kane and Parise then the USA defense had with Crosby.
Let's put it this way.... Who was more important in the USA's game against Canada ? Chris Drury or Sidney Crosby ?
Hockey is just like the game of chess, and keeping pucks out of your own net is just as important as putting them in the oppositions.
Watch both Parise and Kane shine over Crosby on Sunday. As a matter of fact, after Sunday the Canadien fans will be saying the
same thing most hockey fans say, like, "Oh, we're still better because we have guys who can score"....when the fact of the matter is
that the USA is much better at defending then they are.
Why did the Devils win so many cups without any great goalscorers ? Didn't seem like goalscoring was that important to them.
another gold medal for the US Hockey team.....
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As a Gopher fan I used to hate them, but if I were an expansion team I'd take Parise or Toews. Both play with dignity and are pretty good.
How many times was Jumbo Joe's number called tonight? Anyone keeping score?
he's still busy pulling Chris Drury's teeth out of his arse.
<< <i>Crosby is great, but seems to be a whiny little !@#$%. Ovechkin is great up front and and will hit. Doesn't seem to cry as much as Cindy, but he is Russian so it is just a matter of time.
As a Gopher fan I used to hate them, but if I were an expansion team I'd take Parise or Toews. Both play with dignity and are pretty good. >>
I was very impressed with Parise. Great two way player.
Crosby is real good but may be a little overrated.
I don't like Ovechkin because of his dirty play.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>I can't stand Sidney Crosby either, but we all might as well get used to the fact remains that he's probably the best player in the NHL right now, and he's only going to get better.
? >>
Ryan Miller named tournament MVP.
Sidney Crosby not named to the all star tournament team.
What Olympics did you watch ?
Jonathan Toews was clearly the best player for Canada.
How can you be the best player in the NHL when you weren't even the best player for your country ?
Sidney was invisible against team USA in both games. How did he do on that breakaway when Patrick Kane caught him from behind ? Ryan Keslers line ate up his line. Best player in the NHL ??? The NHL doesn't have a best player right now. It has a lot of good young players,
but no one can carry the title as the best. To say so is just ridiculous. There is no Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr in the NHL right now.
<< <i>
<< <i>I can't stand Sidney Crosby either, but we all might as well get used to the fact remains that he's probably the best player in the NHL right now, and he's only going to get better.
? >>
Ryan Miller named tournament MVP.
Sidney Crosby not named to the all star tournament team.
What Olympics did you watch ?
Jonathan Toews was clearly the best player for Canada.
How can you be the best player in the NHL when you weren't even the best player for your country ?
Sidney was invisible against team USA in both games. How did he do on that breakaway when Patrick Kane caught him from behind ? Ryan Keslers line ate up his line. Best player in the NHL ??? The NHL doesn't have a best player right now. It has a lot of good young players,
but no one can carry the title as the best. To say so is just ridiculous. There is no Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr in the NHL right now. >>
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>
<< <i>I can't stand Sidney Crosby either, but we all might as well get used to the fact remains that he's probably the best player in the NHL right now, and he's only going to get better.
? >>
Ryan Miller named tournament MVP.
Sidney Crosby not named to the all star tournament team.
What Olympics did you watch ?
Jonathan Toews was clearly the best player for Canada.
How can you be the best player in the NHL when you weren't even the best player for your country ?
Sidney was invisible against team USA in both games. How did he do on that breakaway when Patrick Kane caught him from behind ? Ryan Keslers line ate up his line. Best player in the NHL ??? The NHL doesn't have a best player right now. It has a lot of good young players,
but no one can carry the title as the best. To say so is just ridiculous. There is no Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr in the NHL right now. >>
This is why I try to stay out of threads like this. One time:
I'm speaking of the NHL. I'm not speaking of a six game tournament (or seven for the Canadians) which featured NHL players. There is a difference. If Pujols hits .180 in the 2010 WS and Ortiz hits .430 with five HR's and is named MVP, does that mean that Ortiz is a better player than Pujols? I mean, come on.
Sidney Crosby is a very, very good hockey player. He is, in fact, probably the best player currently active, and if he's not the best he's at least in the conversation. I have absolutely no interest in getting involved in a 'who's better' discussion, for reasons I've outlined earlier. If you don't think Crosby is the best player in the NHL, then that's fine. Reasonable people can disagree. If you think he's not in the conversation then I think there's probably a lot about hockey that you don't understand.