Open letter to BJ Searls "Why aren't certification #'s reported in Registry Sets?"
HdHunter
Posts: 133
I sent the following email today to BJ Searls concerning a matter that has bothered me for some time. Appreciate other members feedback:
From: Jonathan Watkins
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:57 PM
To: 'setregistry@pcgs.com'
Subject: Why aren't certification #'s reported in Registry Sets?
BJ:
Several years ago it was determined that a member of the Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Matte Proof (1909-1916) Registry had falsely represented coins he did not own in his registry set. After much uproar on Collectors Universe PCGS Set Registry Forum his set was removed and not counted in the Current or All Time Finest list. I realized then that there was a flaw in the registry, that the basis of the registry is honesty and trust among the members. Sadly it has already been proven that this doesn’t always exist.
I have reason to believe that there is at least one registry set within the Matte Proof Lincoln collection that is not authentic and personally knowing the amount of time and money members have expended in attaining legitimate status, feel there should be some way of verifying the veracity of a specific Registry Set. The only remedy that I can come up with would be a requirement that the designated certification number should accompany any coin added to a set, and that this certification number be avaiable for anyone to see. This way members can logically track the provenance of a coin through various auction houses over course of time. I do know that this is already done within the properties URL Address of imaged coins in a Registry Set.
I think to maintain the integrity of the registry; this should be given serious consideration for all coins added to anyone‘s Registry Set..
Respectfully,
Jonathan Watkins
From: Jonathan Watkins
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 5:57 PM
To: 'setregistry@pcgs.com'
Subject: Why aren't certification #'s reported in Registry Sets?
BJ:
Several years ago it was determined that a member of the Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Matte Proof (1909-1916) Registry had falsely represented coins he did not own in his registry set. After much uproar on Collectors Universe PCGS Set Registry Forum his set was removed and not counted in the Current or All Time Finest list. I realized then that there was a flaw in the registry, that the basis of the registry is honesty and trust among the members. Sadly it has already been proven that this doesn’t always exist.
I have reason to believe that there is at least one registry set within the Matte Proof Lincoln collection that is not authentic and personally knowing the amount of time and money members have expended in attaining legitimate status, feel there should be some way of verifying the veracity of a specific Registry Set. The only remedy that I can come up with would be a requirement that the designated certification number should accompany any coin added to a set, and that this certification number be avaiable for anyone to see. This way members can logically track the provenance of a coin through various auction houses over course of time. I do know that this is already done within the properties URL Address of imaged coins in a Registry Set.
I think to maintain the integrity of the registry; this should be given serious consideration for all coins added to anyone‘s Registry Set..
Respectfully,
Jonathan Watkins
0
Comments
PCGS knows the cert numbers for the coins registered. Not sure why you think you should know as well.
Jonathan
I understand your thinking behind your suggestion, but I agree that if PCGS implemented such a rule, many top sets including Stewart's and Gerry's would be removed from the Set Registries. The Set Registry must be based on the honesty of the participants and I believe that in general this is true. Anyone who cheats is just cheating himself IMHO.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
I could not agree more. For those of you who need an explanation of how the current Registry system can be (and was) totally abused, there is a post from about one year ago (referenced by Jon) that sums the matter up well. I cannot find the post, so I assume that it has been privately archived, but I remember that a certain member did successfully post a top 10 set of very expensive coins in which he did not own at least one of the coins. In other words, he was dishonest. This was very unfair to all of the legitimate collectors on this Registry. I reported the abuse to BJ and the matter was well-handled, of course.
My questions are this: 1) Why would anybody really care that the cert numbers ARE made known? 2) How does this transperency of cert numbers on the part of PCGS in any way truly lower the integrity of the system?
Duane
In fact the images didn't match the cert numbers of the coins that were actulally entered into the set (a fact PCGS knew or should have known to be the case).
As for your idea: it will NEVER happen for many of the reasons already noted above.
<< <i>not sure why it seems to matter to some of you if the cert numbers get posted publicly?? what can be done with that information other than register a coin in the registry??? >>
For one, it facilitates the production of a more believable counterfeit slab...
COMPLETE KENNEDY VARIETY SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES AND PROOFS
1964 MINT SET
<< <i>Actually the set was assembled (over time), owned, & subsequently sold as a set by a dealer as noted (but entered into the registry to make an historical record of such) but the images posted (as an afterthought) were of different "representative" coins.
In fact the images didn't match the cert numbers of the coins that were actulally entered into the set (a fact PCGS knew or should have known to be the case).
As for your idea: it will NEVER happen for many of the reasons already noted above. >>
Big Rick-
Thank you for the inside info. And maybe it will never happen, but that still does not address two very open and honest questions:
1) Why would anybody really care that the cert numbers ARE made known? 2) How does this transparency of cert numbers on the part of PCGS in any way truly lower the integrity of the system?
Really - how is anyone actually hurt by open disclosure of the cert numbers. The only thing that I as a member can do with the cert number is check the authenticity and grade of the coin (and this is already known by the coin's presence in the Registry, right?) If someone has nothing to hide, why would they care? This is not an interrogatory, but those questions are the logical key.
BTW: I'll bet that Johnny Podres would not hide his cert number!
Duane
<< <i>
<< <i>not sure why it seems to matter to some of you if the cert numbers get posted publicly?? what can be done with that information other than register a coin in the registry??? >>
For one, it facilitates the production of a more believable counterfit slab... >>
Dave-
I notice that you post a beautiful Kennedy Half Dollar Tru-View (With Cert Number 21637941 openly displayed) as your signature.
Clearly, you do not have any worries that a pirate might create a counterfeit slab using your publicaly-available cert number?
So is that REALLY a worry to a collector? (maybe to PCGS - but I'm not sure given the ubiquity of the cert numbers, as pointed out). PCGS has openly stated that counterfeit slabs are easy enough to distinguish.
Duane
What good would posting the cert # do? That would just give everybody more numbers to work with.
Right now the only way you could get away with using a cert of a coin that you do not own, is if the true owner doesn't try to register it.
Actually the set was assembled (over time), owned, & subsequently sold as a set by a dealer as noted (but entered into the registry to make an historical record of such) but the images posted (as an afterthought) were of different "representative" coins.
In fact the images didn't match the cert numbers of the coins that were actulally entered into the set (a fact PCGS knew or should have known to be the case).
As for your idea: it will NEVER happen for many of the reasons already noted above.
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My Sets
Edited: Sunday February 21, 2010 at 1:40 PM by BigRick
BigRick or RBinTex or whatever you go by this month, the fact is you are the person who misrepresented your Registry Set back in May 2008, so the comment “sold as a set by a dealer”, is another misrepresentation by you, just under a different name. The question that should be asked is “what kind of person would misrepresent ownership of a coin, in any fashion, on a Registry Set?" My opinion is no one that is ethical or honest. If I controlled the PCGS Registry I would have taken down every set under your various names and never permit your entering the Registry again. Steve’s closing comments in the May 2008 Forum were perhaps the best:
“
Tuesday May 20, 2008 6:07 AM
It's nice to know that my feelings about the "ttsd" MPL set were also felt by most of us on this forum. The excitment we enjoy in owning and/or craving MPL's cause us to feel very strongly that only true collections be included in the PCGS set registry for Matte Proof Lincoln cents. This is particularly true for the listing of "All Time Finest". To put the ttsd set up there with Stewart and Doug just NEVER seemed right to me. Hopefully, this issue is closed. I want to thank everyone who by their comments on this thread or by personal communication caused PCGS to do the right thing. Steve
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Proud owner of all 90 Major Lincoln PROOF Wheat & Memorial cents, 44 Lincoln CIRCULATION STRIKE Wheat & Memorial cents and 16 Lincoln Satin Finish Mint Set Memorial cents in the Set Registries
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties (1909-2009) Set Registry
Edited: Tuesday May 20, 2008 at 6:10 AM by Steve
By the way, as I stated in my original message, PCGS doesn’t have a problem listing the cert # on any imaged coin in a Registry Set, you just have to use the your right mouse key over coin image and click on Properties URL Address and the cert number appears.
Care to enlighten us Jonathan?
<< <i>..."I have reason to believe that there is at least one registry set within the Matte Proof Lincoln collection that is not authentic..."
Care to enlighten us Jonathan?
I thought Jon was kidding - "Big Rick" and "RBinTex" are really the same guy?
Tex - I have to give you points for having brass coins
Duane
When the time comes, I just might!
<< <i>Dave-
I notice that you post a beautiful Kennedy Half Dollar Tru-View (With Cert Number 21637941 openly displayed) as your signature.
Clearly, you do not have any worries that a pirate might create a counterfeit slab using your publicaly-available cert number?
So is that REALLY a worry to a collector? (maybe to PCGS - but I'm not sure given the ubiquity of the cert numbers, as pointed out). PCGS has openly stated that counterfeit slabs are easy enough to distinguish. >>
Duane
Am I concerned about someone attempting to pass a counterfeit of that coin? Absolutely not. The coin you referenced above is well known to serious Kennedy and Modern Type collectors. It is unique both in date/grade and its fairly distinctive look ...enough so that I'm comfortable that anyone seriously interested in acquiring it already knows what it looks like, and would not be fooled by a fake.
The same cannot be said for many other coins we own. I don't want my pop 3 or pop 5 coins counterfeited, given a verifiable cert number, and offered by a con-artist who's willing to sell at a value significantly below what a true collector would demand for the coin. It just makes it too damn easy to help degrade the value of the genuine coin. And while PCGS may believe it's easy for them to discern counterfeit slabs, it may not be quite so apparent to a collector...who's faith in the integrity of the slab system is partially responsible for the stability of price values.
COMPLETE KENNEDY VARIETY SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES AND PROOFS
1964 MINT SET
I hate to disillusion you but the cert # has been available on every coin sold by Heritage over the last several years. Therefore, a potential counterfeiter has many options to explore before trying to counterfeit a registered coin. Personally, I think someone like that would likely try and stay away from registry coins, whose cert numbers are known, for fear the question would be raised “why would this coin be for sale if it is still listed in someone else’s Registry Set?” Matter of fact more I think of it, this would probably serve as a guarantee that your coin would not be counterfeited because it would be known as being owned by someone already. JMHO.
Jonathan
I have no disillusion regarding the availability of cert numbers...someone wanting one bad enough will find a way to get it. I don't see any sense making it easy for them. A thief who wants in my home bad enough will be able to do so (assuming I'm not there to shoot his ass)...but I still lock the doors when I leave. In my opinion, the downside risk of advertising my cert numbers far outweighs the consequence of someone cheating in a registry set. I guess it's a matter of priorities...for me making it harder to counterfit the slabs is much more important than registry rankings...
COMPLETE KENNEDY VARIETY SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES AND PROOFS
1964 MINT SET
Thank you. Sometimes my flippancy tends to minimize serious issues, and I did not mean to do that. I think you are correct in explaining that this issue comes down to priorities.
My only counter to your very good point is that an external theft (by counterfeit) is a very serious matter, and it is also very serious when someone violates the system from the inside by use of the cert numbers. So we are on the same side
To put a finer point on it, a cert number is just a tool. And 99 out of 100 people will use the tool correctly. So I don't advocate catering to that 1 person who in fact would violate the trust of others by counterfeiting and/OR cheating via the cert number.
If the cert numbers are easily available (as we know they are, and as Jon has explained), why should PCGS not make them openly available and remove all doubt? The system itself becomes safer internally and externally when there is full transparency in the system, including openly known cert numbers. That is just my HO.
If anyone actually had data to support either argument, one way or the other, I think most collectors would be very interested (I would). I think that honest people all want the same thing: integrity of the system.
Duane
I understand your desire to police the registry...I'm just not willing to relinquish my security to have that happen. Why give the wolves the keys to the henhouse?
Jonathan's argument… that some cert numbers are readily available so we may as well give them all the rest…does not hold water for me. Certainly there are resources a counterfeiter might access to obtain some cert numbers that correctly associate with a PCGS coin number and assigned grade. Why provide them with a complete list? If a thief had the tools to attempt to take half of your belongings, would you give him the resources to take the other half as well?
Here's a personal example of how your proposed transparency puts us at risk...
My son and I have a "Kennedy with varieties" set in the registry. Under your proposal, all of our cert numbers (and the correct associated PCGS coin numbers and assigned grades) would be available to a potential counterfeiter. Here are a few examples of some coins that would fit in that registry set…
PCGS COIN #............DATE........GRADE
391385................... 1964..........MS63
146011................... 1964-D......MS67
390316................... 1964-D......MS61
146078................... 1964-D......MS66
391390................... 1967..........MS63
147850................... 1972..........MS62
391380................... 1964..........PR68CA
148702................... 1968-S.......PR66DC
148742................... 1968-S.......PR65
I’d be willing to wager that you can’t find a PCGS cert number to associate with any of those coins today. However, if the transparency you are looking for is instituted, those cert numbers will be available to every potential counterfeiter out there. That’s what I don’t like…and that’s where Jonathan’s proposal invites risk for me.
COMPLETE KENNEDY VARIETY SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES AND PROOFS
1964 MINT SET
Do you realize that the cert # is already available on the three coins you have imaged, i.e., example:
http://caimages.collectors.com/coinimages/3301/05982224/1964MS67Ken_thumbnail.jpg
Under the Properties URL Address. Therefore as you image more of your coins, the cert # will be available to anyone who wants it. There are coins out there worth considerably more than any coin I own that PCGS shows their cert number already because the coin is imaged. Personally, I just don't see your argument as being a major issue, but respect your opinion.
Probably if PCGS would play a stronger role in policing the registry and getting rid of cheats, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Really sad isn't it?!
Jonathan
Yes...I am aware that the six coins that are imaged in our open sets have their cert numbers exposed. If I were concerned over any of them, the sets would be closed. Those six coins represent well less than 1% of our PCGS holdered coins. As the system stands today, I and I alone decide which of those coins have their cert numbers exposed. This is precisely why many of our sets remain closed to public viewing...and the reason our imaged MS67 1969-D half isn't included in our 1969 mint set which is open to view. Under the current system, I could go into my inventory, delete the images, and open all our sets without exposing the cert numbers. Not so under your proposal.
Just because I'm willing to show the cert numbers on some common dates doesn't mean I'm willing to take the same risk with every coin we own. In my earlier post, I listed a few coins I'm not willing to take that risk with. Under the system today, I feel those cert numbers are safe and can not be found. Under your proposal, those numbers would be compromised, and the coins might well be removed from the registry sets.
COMPLETE KENNEDY VARIETY SET, CIRCULATION STRIKES AND PROOFS
1964 MINT SET
Closed sets are suspect as are sets with no pictures.
Anyone that resorts to this is not only cheating him or herself -
but they are also cheating, hurting legitimate set owners.
It's indeed quite pitiful - REALLY!
Although I could do it, I'd sure hate to be forced to "prove" ownership of all the slabs I have registered just because somebody thought I was cheating. How would I go about that anyway? Provide a scan? Provide a picture? Provide a picture of me holding the coin with today's newspaper? How?
I'd also hate to be the fellow at PCGS that was tasked with tracking down unqualified cert numbers based on someone's suspicion.
The Set Registry is on the honor system and its free. Anybody that has possession of a PCGS Certification Number can join the Set Registry and those certification numbers are all over the place and readily available to anybody. Yes folks will betray that honor but there is absolutely nothing that can be done to prevent it. Publishing cert numbers in specific sets does nothing.
The name is LEE!