Valentinian II (Antioch)

kurtdog

Only reason I know that is because I can read. What I'm having problems with is placing that reverse with that "T" at 9:00. Need help identifying this. This is an earlier one (obviously). Thanks.

kurtdog

Now don't all answer at once...

OK, what about just this? Am I correct in assuming that something like this one is simply unidentified at present (which, BTW, isn't all that atypical for these "ancients")? Tell you the truth, it's not only that reverse with that "T" at 9:00, I can't even find an exact match of that obverse bust. Can I assume that that's not at all that uncommon, and that about all that one can truly surmise, here, is, "Antioch Mint, 3rd Officina, circa somewhere around about 375-392 AD, give or take?" I really don't know what I'm dealing with, here, folks. I know that there must have been tons of these given the Graeco-Roman world had been pretty much supplanted by that time, the Roman Empire was pretty much in full-swing, and a lot of these are, most probably, and quite literally, as common as the dirt I'm sure most of them are still buried in...but, I digress. Just identify it the best you can, OK? I'll take anything you can add to my understanding of this coin, at this point. Thanks...

STLNATS

Assuming that there is no star preceding the mintmark, it seems to be Late Roman Bronze Coinage (LRBC) # 2749 and is described as an AE 2 of Valentinian II. The obverse buse is "M" described as "bust right, rosette diadem, helmeted with spear in right hand and shield in left." Reverse field markings of T to left and a cross to right. the emperor is on a galley with Victory at the helm. Dated to 383-392.

LRBC is pretty terse and I'm sure has been updated by RIC, which I don't have since I collect an earlier period. These in lower grade (as yours) are fairly common. And with so much material being unearthed, a large number of previously unrecorded varieties are constantly coming out. Also, remember that these were handcut dies so an exact match is unlikely unless you get a die link.

kurtdog

That tells me a lot, STL, and I can attribute it, now, in better detail, too. Only reason I knew what I did is I researched some before I showed it and asked the question. Thanks very much for this, I appreciate it.

EDIT: On the "T" on the reverse, I think I just figured out, that was a crucifix, too (there were two main types of these)...

kurtdog

Oh what the heck, here's my research on that (the "T" at 9:00 on the reverse)...

Crucifixion
LINK

Crucifixion is an ancient method of execution, where the victim was tied or nailed to a large wooden cross (Latin: crux) and left to hang there until dead. It was a fairly common form of execution from the 6th century BC, especially among the Persians, Egyptians, Carthaginians, and Romans, until c. 313 AD, when Christianity became the dominant faith in Rome. Crucifixion has special significance in Christianity as Jesus was put to death by the Romans by being nailed to a cross. The cross or the crucifix has become the main Christian symbol.

Crucifixion - Details of crucifixion

Crucifixion was hardly (if ever) performed for ritual or symbolic reasons; usually, its purpose was only to provide a particularly painful, gruesome, and public death, using whatever means were most expedient for that goal. [...]

Crucifixion - Cross shape

The horizontal beam of the cross, or transom, could be fixed at the very top of the vertical piece, the upright, to form a capital T called a tau cross or Saint Anthony's cross. The horizontal beam could also be affixed at some distance below the top, often in a mortise, to form a lowercase t-shape called a Latin cross, more often depicted in Christian imagery. [...]

Now I'm just not sure what the two different cross-types were meant to symbolize (i.e., both Christianity, both the Roman power of crucifixion, or one and the other). Interesting Easter Day question, though...

EDIT: I think it's both (the one at 9:00, Roman crucifixion; at 12:00, Christianity)...

Sapyx

I think the "T" shape to the left is simply a letter "T", a control mark - perhaps the initial of the guy that carved the die. The cross or t-shape to the right is a Christian cross, symbolizing the new official religion of the Empire and also marking Antioch's significance to the new religion. Crosses appear far more frequently on the coinage of the Antioch mint than on those of other mints at this time.

At the time this coin was issued (late 300's AD), crucifixion was no longer used within the Empire as a means of punishing criminals. It had been abolished by Constantine in 337 AD, who considered it inappropriate to treat criminals in the same way his new master Jesus was treated.

The usual symbol that appeared on Roman coins to signify the State's right to punish wrongdoers was the fasces - a bundle of thirty rods tied around an axe. The axe symbolized the right to execute (by beheading - only non-citizens were crucified) and the rods symbolized both the right of the state to apply corporal punishment (by beating with a rod) and the limitations on that punishment (thirty beatings at any one time was the legal maximum number allowed).

kurtdog

Thanks Sapyx. The "open switch," if you will (railroad expression), on my theory was just as you had noted; namely, the inappropriateness of a Holy Roman Empire continuing to punish transgressions through crucifixion. I just had to inquire, though, given what I had just turned up on those two types of crosses. Their placement on the coin is somewhat interesting, too. The more familiar Christian type is high, and the gaze is affixed on it, as if it's a guidepost, of sorts. The other type is lower, more down to Earth (and, for that matter, right under the arm with the sword). I'll take that theory as "derailed," though. At least, let's just say, for the time being...

PS: Seriously, yours is the more plausible explanation, I think...