Does PCGS have any Bias when grading NGC Cross overs?
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I was wondering if you submit your NGC PR70 to PCGS, will they notice it's NGC and think the way a lot of the forum thinks and say, "It's NGC, so we must look at the coin a little closer"
Or, do they negate the fact that the coin is in an NGC holder, crack it out, and grade it for what it truly is?
Thanks,
bnb
Or, do they negate the fact that the coin is in an NGC holder, crack it out, and grade it for what it truly is?
Thanks,
bnb
0
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Edit: My mistake, you can not specify 70 as a minimum grade on a crossover.
edited: blu62vette is correct...you can't SPECIFY a minimum grade 70 for crossover. It COULD (hypothetically) make a 70, but DON'T hold your breath for a 70 on a crossover attempt.
<< <i>They will NOT accept a crossover submission for a 70. >>
Can we confirm that?
<< <i>
<< <i>They will NOT accept a crossover submission for a 70. >>
Can we confirm that? >>
Look at a submission form or do a online submission form. It says it right there.
For that matter, did you get the 3-legger back yet??? Been waiting awhile now...I'd be getting antsy.
<< <i>
<< <i>They will NOT accept a crossover submission for a 70. >>
Can we confirm that? >>
YOU could confirm it yourself by simply submitting the crossover.
Fill out the form, package your slab and form and send them in.
You'll have an answer within a week of them receiving it.
Let us know how it turns out Ok?
The name is LEE!
If I have a PR 70 Proof Buffalo from NGC and send it to PCGS to be graded... they won't grade it?
Why doesn't that make any sense to me??
bnb
More simply put....you WON'T see a crossover 70...even if the planets are aligned.
Edit: to clarify you cannot set a minimum grade on a 70 crossover. You can on all other grades.
<< <i>Where is Tin Star pointing out a possible violation of posting rules??? >>
Wait, what did i do to violate posting rules?
Does PCGS have any Bias when grading NGC Cross Overs?
I still haven't heard a true answer to that.
bnb
<< <i>Guys, please read the original thread title.
Does PCGS have any Bias when grading NGC Cross Overs?
I still haven't heard a true answer to that.
bnb >>
And you wont. That would probably get a poof.
<< <i>Guys, please read the original thread title.
Does PCGS have any Bias when grading NGC Cross Overs?
I still haven't heard a true answer to that.
bnb >>
Because your question in your header and your question in your thread are entirely different matters.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>Guys, please read the original thread title.
Does PCGS have any Bias when grading NGC Cross Overs?
I still haven't heard a true answer to that.
bnb >>
And you wont. That would probably get a poof. >>
Well, if it does it does, but that's not my intention.. It's a very logical question.
bnb
<< <i>
<< <i>Guys, please read the original thread title.
Does PCGS have any Bias when grading NGC Cross Overs?
I still haven't heard a true answer to that.
bnb >>
Because your question in your header and your question in your thread are entirely different matters.
Well, not at all,
I just want to know if PCGS may grade something less or have a bias towards an NGC coin in an NGC holder? I gave the Proof example just as an example.
bnb
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Guys, please read the original thread title.
Does PCGS have any Bias when grading NGC Cross Overs?
I still haven't heard a true answer to that.
bnb >>
And you wont. That would probably get a poof. >>
Well, if it does it does, but that's not my intention.. It's a very logical question.
bnb >>
Maybe, but read the new posting rules and it is a borderline question. Could be skewed as bashing and could really lead to bashing.
I think popular opinion is that it is harder to get a 70 at PCGS. That is part of why they carry more of a premium.
I just want to know if PCGS may grade something less or have a bias towards an NGC coin in an NGC holder? I gave the Proof example just as an example.
bnb>>
Bad example.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
But anyway, I'll take the answers I got as golden and move on..
bnb
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Guys, please read the original thread title.
Does PCGS have any Bias when grading NGC Cross Overs?
I still haven't heard a true answer to that.
bnb >>
Because your question in your header and your question in your thread are entirely different matters.
Well, not at all,
I just want to know if PCGS may grade something less or have a bias towards an NGC coin in an NGC holder? I gave the Proof example just as an example.
bnb >>
You will never get an answer on bias. You can search on crossovers and see how people have faired.
edit:I have 0 experience trying to cross Ngc 70's
1) I would imagine that evaluating a coin through the plastic of an NGC slab would make it a little tougher to discern the grade, individual attributes and any potential problems the coin might have. Therefore, a bias against crossing at the same grade would likely be introduced if for no other reason than liability.
2) PCGS will not cross an MS70 or PR70 from another holder into a PCGS holder. They have stated in the past that they cannot adequately examine the rims of the coin to make the determination of a 70 grade while the coin is in the host holder. If you want a PCGS MS70 or PR70 you either have to send in a raw coin and obtain the grade, buy one already graded or send in a coin for regrade. Hypothetially, if you chose to ask for a minimum grade of MS69 or PR69 on a cross from an NGC holder and while the coin was raw PCGS decided it should be graded MS70 or PR70 then you would receive the grade of 70. This last scenario is not likely.
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<< <i>So wait..
If I have a PR 70 Proof Buffalo from NGC and send it to PCGS to be graded... they won't grade it?
Why doesn't that make any sense to me??
bnb >>
Of course they will grade it, but I doubt they will ever cross it which is mostly due to the fact that they can't see the edge. They won't remove the NGC coin from its holder until it crosses at a grade acceptable to you. I don't think they will ever give a 70 as long as it is in some type of a holder. If you have faith in your's and NGC's ability to truly evaluate a 70, your only option is to crack it and send it in raw. If it fails, don't be surprised if NGC doesn't regrade it a 70 either. If you want a PCGS 70 take your chances submission-wise or just buy it as a 70.
That answer tends to be a matter of personal opinion that varies according to your latest submission results. In my opinion they don't have a bias. Also in my opinion NGC simply grades some series much differently than PCGS does, so the poor results of some crossover submissions can make it appear there is a bias.
In the case of any 70 coin that is submitted for crossover, PCGS' policy is that they can't make an accurate determination of a 70 coin if it is inside a holder. That means they have to break it out... and that means if they decide it isn't a 70 then they can't put it back into the other company's holder. This is why they won't accept any coins graded 70 for crossover unless you put down "cross at any grade" on the form. Thus, it becomes the same as a raw submission where every grade is in play and so is "genuine".
We will not cross coins at the 70 grade. That is clearly stated on our submission forms. Here are the PCGS crossover guidelines.
CROSSOVER: For coins previously graded by other companies. PCGS will holder only if it meets or exceeds current grade on holder through our grading process unless a lower minimum grade is specified (write in "MIN. GRADE" column) You cannot specify a higher minimum grade. you may write "ANY" to cross coin at any grade. You must write "Genuine" to cross non-gradable coins. MS/PR 70 coins must have a minimum grade of 69 or lower.
<< <i>PCGS doesn't have a bias against crossing coins from any other grading service. We want all the good coins in PCGS holders. The coins have to be graded to our standards, thats all. >>
That makes sense.
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<< <i>Guys, please read the original thread title.
Does PCGS have any Bias when grading NGC Cross Overs?
I still haven't heard a true answer to that.
bnb >>
If they take the advice often offered here to "buy the coin and not the holder" there shouldn't be any bias, but I can't speak for the PCGS folks. Then again, I wonder how many collectors/dealers have some sort of preconceived holder bias.
In any case, PCGS holdered coins sell easier, and for more money. I have no problem stepping up, and paying that extra money for the best.
Each individual has his own opinion as to a PCGS grading bias on NGC crossovers. Any negative opinion about PCGS is not allowed to be stated here, according to the new PCGS forum rules. I do thank Don Willis for adding to this thread.
<< <i>Guys, please read the original thread title.
Does PCGS have any Bias when grading NGC Cross Overs?
I still haven't heard a true answer to that.
bnb >>
Lets rephrase the question for a more realistic (and safe) approach.
Literally ANY coin which gets posted to these forums, that has been slabbed by a TPG other than PCGS, gets a good going over to "justify" the grade. In other words, we look at it and ask ourselves "Does it deserve an MS-xx grade?" There are some TPG's which everybody assumes the coin is over graded. Nobody can deny that statement.
I believe that PCGS takes a similar approach but they ask the question "Will it grade at or above the submitters "minimum" expectations?" If the minimum is set at the current assigned grade, the question changes to "Is it an MS-xx?"
I don't truely believe that there is bias as much as I believe that its easier to state "Lets set the Bar here." instead of asking "Why is the bar set so high?" In other words, questions incite debate whereas statements are matter of fact.
We do the exact same thing when viewing coins at a coin show when considering whether or not to purchase the coin.
Many times, this process involves micro grading simply because you are "justifying" the assigned grade instead of actually assigning the grade. There is a difference between being critical vs analytical.
The name is LEE!
say....it IS in every respect an MS or PR70 coin. And, lets say it is an XYZ grading company slab. If a collector "cracks it out", and submits it as a raw coin....now, we are talking about a coin that in EVERY way meets the PCGS guidelines for "70", will the coin then grade at "70"?
all this is hypothetical of course, but what Im saying is that will MS or PR70 coins be graded as such providing they meet the guidelines PCGS uses for grading such examples?
It does seem a bit odd that if so, the RAW coin can grade as a 70...... while if it were submitted in an XYZ holder, the SAME exact coin, it would be graded as a 69. In a way that does not seem like a correct application of grading standards.
(please understand for the purpose of obeying the rules, this is not meant as criticism)
When I tried for crossovers I did quite well, 3 crossed the same, one came back from a 45 to a 40 but a Reeded Edge half went from ANACS (Old Holder) 50 to PCGS AU55.
That being said, I tend to crack the coins out first, if only because I figure that the graders can simply get a much better look at the coin in hand than when it's in a holder.
You added, Any negative opinion about PCGS is not allowed to be stated here, which actually made me go back and look at what I wrote.
Maybe that's not what you meant literally, but I would like to address it.
The rules are in place, not to muzzle people's opinions, but to make this a more civil and educational forum. I've seen lots of posts critical of PCGS since I posted those rules. We may not always agree but we should always be able to have a civil conversation. We are trying to identify and remove those posters who are not interested in supporting the purpose of this forum, not to stifle the dialogue.
If a coin comes to us raw and meets our standard to be graded 70, then we grade it 70. Obviously those standards are very high.
If a coin comes to us in another TPG holder our graders do not have the ability to clearly examine every aspect of the coin. Therefore they may miss something that, if seen, would prevent the coin from grading 70. The difference between 69 and 70 can be very tiny and easily missed when the coin is in a holder. That's why as policy we will not cross coins in the 70 grade. It's nothing against any other service, its simply to protect ourselves from making a mistake.
<< <i>It does seem a bit odd that if so, the RAW coin can grade as a 70...... while if it were submitted in an XYZ holder, the SAME exact coin, it would be graded as a 69. >>
That is not what PCGS does.
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Great responses too. I'm really happy I posted this, because now I know that PCGS is very objective and doesn't has much bias towards an NGC cased coin. If the coin is a 70, it's a 70, if it's in a 70 holder and PCGS thinks it's a 69, then that's because the coin was probably liberally graded by that other TPG.
bnb
Will another Copper coin ever be assigned the grade of MS70RD ?
(I own one of the 40 so graded and enjoy it very much)
question answered, anyway.
it should be obvious that a thorough evaluation of a coin is not possible in a plastic box
edges are covered, spots, small scratches on slab hender evaluation,....
As stated by others, different services have slightly different standards (which is efficiently reflected in market price)
if one service grades a slightly higher percentage of MS70s than another
chances are good that if you crack them and send them in to a service that does not grade as many (higher standards)
that you will still get some 70s but will also get some 69s
and if a service is really loose some 68s
Give us some pics with your new $2K photo set-up
is this the $2400 reverse or $2800 reverse you bought last week you want in PCGS plastic?
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<< <i>The way I understand the process, if you submit any coin for crossover (w/o specifying a minimum grade), even if it's in an NCS or other "problem coin" holder, PCGS will first crack the coin and they it is reviewed by the graders raw. So if you don't specifiy the minimum, the graders will never see the plastic originally holding your coin and there would be no opportunity for bias. Of course by saying to cross at any grade you obviously risk a potential downgrade. But maybe my understanding of the process is incorrect? >>
That's only on a regrade. If you send a PCGS coin in for regrade, it's cracked, graded and reholdered. They won't downgrade the coin though.
On a crossover the coin is only cracked if it's gradable, as best as they can tell from viewing it in the holder, at or above the minimum grade you specified on the submission form. I have seen plenty of coins that would never grade at PCGS in other TPG holders, that's why they don't crack them unless they are convinced it will grade.
Hoard the keys.
If you have a PR70 from another TPG, and there is no question it is genuine, then these are options.
1) Submit it in its holder and ask for a minimum 69. PCGS will:
a) look at it without cracking, decide it is at least 69, crack it and grade it 69 or 70, as warranted. Or
b) look at it without cracking, decide it is not at least 69 and return it in its TPG slab
2) Submit it in its holder or raw and ask for any grade (no minimum). PCGS will grade it as appropriate and slab it.
I am guessing there is a third option but it doesn't make much sense to me:
3) Submit it raw and ask for a minimum 69. PCGS will:
a) grade it 69 or 70, as warranted. Or
b) return it raw because it cannot be graded 69 or 70
(Why anyone would ask for a minimum on a raw coin? You can always crack it out of its lower-graded PCGS holder.)
Someone correct me if any of this logic is wrong.
Lance.
<< <i>I was wondering if you submit your NGC PR70 to PCGS, will they notice it's NGC and think the way a lot of the forum thinks and say, "It's NGC, so we must look at the coin a little closer"
Or, do they negate the fact that the coin is in an NGC holder, crack it out, and grade it for what it truly is?
Thanks,
bnb >>
Good question. Anything beyond an answer from PCGS is conjecture, guessing, surmising, assuming, and thinking outloud.
Please don't quote me on this