2004 Lewis & Clark Proof Coin & Pouch Set

silvergoldnut

does anyone remember the release price on these ?

was able to pick one up on flea- bay today for 54.77 (winning bid), my little girl ( 5 years old )will love it for her collection....anyway i can't remember what they went for and the redbook says 200.00 ??? must be a misprint LOL !!!!

Mercury10c

I don't remember exactly, but I'm sure that the issue price was over $100.

savoyspecial

this thread should give some insight (also one variety was recalled when the mint discovered some "tribes" did not hand produce their pouches)

tightbudget

I think issue price was like $119.95 or somewhere around there. These were in extremely high demand for a short while after release, which explains the $200 Redbook price.

silvergoldnut

thanks guys, can always depend on this board !!!

foodude

My recollection was I bought them fro $120 or $125 from the mint.

savoyspecial

here is that press release

jessewvu

I know all about them. Here is a link to my website of a couple dozen.

Link to my Picture Library

If it was made by Errol Medicine, rather has an Errol Medicine COA, it's probably fake.

The US Mint issue price was $120. The US Mint had an initial contract with the native americans to produce 20,000 pouches and after the quick sellout of that stock, they obtained 30,000 more. The second group were no where near the quality of the first.

MsMorrisine

wow

what a collection


are you going to post the big pictures for those?

silvergoldnut

<< <i>I know all about them. Here is a link to my website of a couple dozen.

Link to my Picture Library

If it was made by Errol Medicine, rather has an Errol Medicine COA, it's probably fake.

The US Mint issue price was $120. The US Mint had an initial contract with the native americans to produce 20,000 pouches and after the quick sellout of that stock, they obtained 30,000 more. The second group were no where near the quality of the first. >>







designed by April Fox of The Three Affiliated Tribes (North Dakota).

thanks for all those pics, WOW is all i can say., i guess i got it at a good price. can't wait to show my little one !!

pennyannie

<< <i>I know all about them. Here is a link to my website of a couple dozen.

Link to my Picture Library

If it was made by Errol Medicine, rather has an Errol Medicine COA, it's probably fake.

The US Mint issue price was $120. The US Mint had an initial contract with the native americans to produce 20,000 pouches and after the quick sellout of that stock, they obtained 30,000 more. The second group were no where near the quality of the first. >>



Is there a way to know what group one was made from? 1 or 2 ? Also i thought the price had to do with what tribe made the bag on the secondary market. Dakota Sue? Lakota Sue?

silvergoldnut

heres a pic of what i got coming, don't know if its a rare one , but i could not beat the price.

aficoinado

<< <i>heres a pic of what i got coming, don't know if its a rare one , but i could not beat the price.

>>



Is it a Type 1 or Type 2 pouch?

jessewvu

The first group typically have very fine beadwork, and smaller beads. The second group, although does contain some of the nicer pouches, typically have large beads and sloppy work.

From my pictures, 112, 114, 192, 200, and 201 comprised 80% of the second group from what I recall.

The one pictured above definitely looks like an April Fox pouch and it's 100% original.

silvergoldnut

<< <i>The first group typically have very fine beadwork, and smaller beads. The second group, although does contain some of the nicer pouches, typically have large beads and sloppy work.

From my pictures, 112, 114, 192, 200, and 201 comprised 80% of the second group from what I recall.

The one pictured above definitely looks like an April Fox pouch and it's 100% original. >>




thank you , jessewvu

you have taught me a few things....

witty

Are you saying the errol medicine pouches are fakes?I have a couple and was wondering if the fakes are worth keeping?The one I have are more like a translucent type material with writing on them unlike most I have seen which are like the op's pics.Any help is appreciated.
Mike

jessewvu

They are not all fake, he was part of the program, as was his sister Wynonna. Errol made a lot of nice pouches but he also made a whole lot of pouches made of rawhide, most had painting on them. These hard rawhide pouches were essentially rejected by the US Mint, that's where I come in. Errol contacted me on eBay because I was selling a lot of these sets at the time and offered me his rejected pouches, with legitimate COA's. Apparently, when the US Mint rejected his pouches he sent in, they also gave him back the official COA, which he had signed. I thought the pouches were legit and purchased several hundred from him and started selling them on eBay. I got a letter from the Director of the US Mint's office, signed in ink, to the effect that the pouches I was selling (and the letter mentioned other sellers online) were not legitimate and very simply told me to stop selling them. I ended up selling a few more but I put VOID on the COA and explained the situation behind them in the auction. After a while of that, I let my dog eat them after I took off the paint and beads.

What other sellers on eBay did, and are still doing, is take his COA and create other pouches that were never made by Errol, and are selling them. It's pretty easy to tell which are real and which are fake. I'd say that 99% of the real pouches are the soft tan leather with small bead work. There are however legitimate pouches made of black, dark brown, and white leather but they are from very specific people and tribes and easy to identify. If the pouch has paint on it, I'd say it's 99.999% a fake because the US Mint was very clear about what they allowed and did not allow for this program. I think I actually have a copy of the contract between the US Mint and Errol Medicine somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

If you have any questions, please send me a picture. I'll help out as best I can.

sinin1

wow jessewvu, that is an impressive collection


I may have to start getting some


if there were 50,000 made and you have 200 of them, that must be around 1/4%

GritsMan

Hey, these are way cool. I never knew about them--and am delighted that the Mint put out something in which every set is unique.

MsMorrisine

unique?

they're all rare!

silvergoldnut

i might have to pick up another one as well.....and with some of those prices ,you can't lose.

jessewvu, thanks again for all the insight. can you say expert ???

Kablemodem

I bought three from the Mint and the pouches are all the same, or at least extremely similar.

jessewvu

Here are good examples of pouches that I have never seen come from the United States Mint issue. I'm not saying for sure they are fake (for liability purposes ), but they sure don't match any that I saw in either group from the US Mint.

jessewvu

More info for those that care.

The initial run was 30,000, vice 20,000 as I stated. I got them mixed up. I can't find the second page of the one letter or the letter from the US Mint. I'll post them when I find them.

PouchMan

Mint price was $120 plus $4.95 S&H per order (not per item).

PouchMan

The mint didn't actually recall the pouches made by members of the Shawnee Nation United Remnant Band. The problem was that the Tribe isn't recognized by the US government as a legitimate tribe, and isn't officially recognized by a state. Under the federal law, a handcrafted item cannot be sold as Native American made unless it is made by a registered member of a tribe officially recognized by the US government or by a state government, or by someone authorized by such tribe to produce them. The Shawnee tribe was a member of the Circle of Tribal Advisors (set up by a group of Tribes to give the Indian point of view about the Lewis and Clark expedition and Bicentennial). As such, they werre qualified under federal law to sell their crafts as Native American made. The problem arose when the tribe dropped its membership in COTA before the program ended. The mint learned of the questioned legitimacy 3 years after the program ended, and decided to offer a full refund plus $10 S&H to anyone who wished to return the Shawnee sets. This wasn't a recall, but simply a money back offer in order to show support for the Native American crafts protection law and the offer was good for a 6 month period from the date it was announced. The Tribe was legal with COTA recognition when the pouches were made, and so their pouches met the federal standard to be legal. I personally returned a total of 23 sets, mostly the usually encountered style with simple beading around the edges or with edge beading and fringe. Bill