Reasons why a collector should/shouldn't collect Conder Tokens

canadacolornut

It's not as though I don't have enough collecting goals already, but there are some really neat
looking Conder Tokens in the Goldberg Sale right now.

I'm fascinated by the antiquity, the history, the genesis and the purpose of the strikings on the one hand,
but reluctant to get involved because I have an obsessive/compulsive track record of going
overboard with my beer budget in trying to build a sensible theme related collection
of attractive material-coins and medals particularly.

Opinions? I know some posters here are well grounded in the series and the values.

Any suggestions, cautions, comments appreciated...

JCMhouston

Because they wouldn't quite fit in to your Canada PL Dime Set???

I only have a couple, the problem with Condors is there are so darn many of them to collect.

farthing

There are a number of pros and cons to collecting Conder tokens.

They are quite thinly collected, even with the tremendous growth in collectors the last few years. Prices have doubled, and doubled again from just a few years ago. This can be good - or bad news. Other thinly collected series (CWTs and SCDs come to mind) have seen large runups lately, only to see prices fall back.

There currently seems to be quite a price difference in slabbed vs non-slabbed tokens, yet the vast majority of UNC tokens are not slabbed (yet). This raises the question as to whether or not the current premium is justified. Some dealers of US coins are now also selling slabbed Conder tokens yet pricing them like early US copper. This can be especially dangerous for dead common varieties, or rare edge varieties of common tokens. As in any area of collecting, it is easy to get 'buried' in a token if you do not know the market.

Just looking at the pictures, it seems to me that some of the tokens in the Goldberg sale are generously graded. As with most auctions, having a trusted eye look at the tokens would be well worth the price. And yes, I already have a list of ones I have an interest in from the sale

All that said, I really enjoy collecting Conder tokens - they are the only collection I am currently active in. I love the shear variety of designs and the history behind each token. Just remember, it could take decades to assemble a collection that covers a representative sampling of designs, even if you only focus on one of the types of tokens (Genuine Trade Tokens, Political tokens, Tradesmen's tokens, building tokens, etc.).

Conders

I have to agree with Farthing...

<< <i>Just looking at the pictures, it seems to me that some of the tokens in the Goldberg sale are generously graded. >>


In Allan D's last sale he commented on the fact that the TPGs are not as accurate at grading pieces made with a good amount of handiwork. I know that the majority of well known Conder specialists will agree with that.

Things to consider: Some Conders are not all that uncommon in UNC with lots of red remaining. That being said, the pieces in the Goldberg sale are still very nice and obviously care was taken in the assembly of the collection... because while they may have been generously graded there exists many more examples of each token in that sale that are hairlined and/or otherwise hideously impaired, but 'uncirculated' To really have a handle on values you have to research the tokens in which you are truly interested.

I have a pretty good list of price data. If you have a few pieces in mind, PM me and I will give you my 2 cents worth.

OchoReales

Measure twice, cut once comes to mind. Take some time to analyze your TRUE collecting goals BEFORE jumping all over the board (no pun intended). There is so much great collectible material out there and focus is KEY. Don't spread yourself too thin! Excellent post by Farthing BTW! I wouldn't want to jump in without taking time to learn about the market for the particular area (I'm saying this as I just purchased 2 Great Britian pieces for my Bolivian collection ).

spoon

We're going to have to organize an intervention for you if you keep jumping at all these pretty shiny things

There are a few political conders I'd like to get someday, but collecting them as a focus area seems like it takes a good bit of dedication and research to do right. That's true of most numismatic interests, but moreso with conders IMO.

canadacolornut

Thanks for the comments fellows; some very good advice there.

When I first started collecting; back in the 70's, I remember a few main areas I was focusing on,
but my interest shifted so much over time they are distant memories now.

A few were; hard time and civil war tokens(still have several), porcelain coins and notgeld, stock certificates
jump to mind. Then I got into split band Roosevelt dimes, Franklin halves, Washington quarters and-still
my main interest-Canadian.

It was a lot of fun then; buying original mint sets, mainly for grade and color, original rolls of Morgan and
Peace dollars, proof sets, and cherry picking the gems and cameos. If all this sounds like I should have made
a lot of money I certainly had the opportunity but sold most of it way too cheap and only have a few high
grade examples now.

My main problem is that I could get reignited on ANY, or all of these series in a New York minute, depending
on moon phase, time of day and what pretty pictures I run into .

I've decided that I'm going to try for just a few Conder tokens that have the design, history and look that
appeals to me. That would be just a few, enough for me to get grounded in the series, learn something
about it, be able to say to the grand kids-" Let me tell you about these here Conder Tokens" and maybe
fetch up some fond memories of grandpa when they're old enough to develop an interest of their
own and maybe pick up some grocery money from the ones I left them.

Thanks again for the help...

Stork

First I would like to say I do NOT collect conders. I have said that many times. Over and over. Again. And again. Yet somehow I seem to have aquired oh, say 19 or 20 of them. I have to remind myself of the collections I do have--particularly Japanese--(I'm trying to find more varieties now, not just ones for my type set), 'mommy medals', and now medals with greyhounds (the dog we aquired 2 yrs ago...).

The problem arises is of course, there are conders with storks, conders with ladies that surely look pregnant (the belly bulge must have been fashionable for awhile) and there is even a conder with a greyhound. And a cat (I like cats too). And mythologic beasts galore -- which I also like (hence my Baden/gryphon coins and that Basel 1/2 taler...oops).

At least I had bought a Dalton/Hamer reference so I wasn't TOTALLY clueless (just partially), and otherwise just try to stay away. I tended to fall off the wagon when at Baltimore. Fortunately I have yet to find a conder seller in Tokyo, so as long as I don't go look at the Goldberg catalog I should be safe. Of course, I HAD to log on today (another oops) so the liklihood of me NOT looking is now slim to none. Goldbergs--geez.

I think for me it works best to have my interests--which I am just now reigniting after about 4-5 months 'off'--and just accept that sometimes there are things I fall into sideways. Conders apparently are one of them. BUT I DON'T COLLECT THEM. Yep, that works.


Cathy

SaorAlba

Because they compete for my dosh with my Scots acquisitions. Conders are beautiful and I like them, but they are one of those areas I avoid except for a few significant pieces because they are just too darkside.

rwyarmch

The Goldberg auction contains the first slabbed Conder collection of any size that I've come across. If this becomes a trend, it seems
likely that the envelopes, old auction tickets and notes on provenance which often accompany Conder sales (particularly in the UK) will be
swept away over time.

I'm curious if anyone has experience bidding on a Goldberg auction using iCollector vs submitting bids directly to the auctioneer? Can you really bid effectively
during the live auction? If I'm reading it right, there is an extra 5% fee to use iCollector for absentee or live bidding.

farthing

I too will miss the old envelopes and auction tickets that currently so often accompany the tokens I own.

RobP

I mentioned this in a post a couple of months ago. To reiterate, I have seen a couple of coins slabbed which not only have lost the tickets which is the default option, but have then had a collection attribution on the holder which is demonstrably wrong.

I suggested that if slabbing were to be the outcome, there should be some mechanism for slabbing the tickets which accompanied the coins so that the provenances were not lost.

Where the coins are not illustrated but the tickets are readily identifiable, this would ensure that historical information was not lost forever. For example, I have a Soho pattern in my collection which was formerly in both the Rev. Rogers and Peck collections. On the Rogers ticket is written 'A gift from Peck, Christmas 1957'. This is also evidence of other information that is not commonly known. In this case it is that not only was Rogers' first collection bought by Baldwin ca.1950 which is well documented, but that he started another collection soon afterwards - born out by another coin in a Baldwin sale in the past few years which was a gift from Peck Christmas 1951 and also supported by an 1860 proof 1/2d in Baldwin's 2009 Winter list where Steve Hill also noted this fact. In the case of the 1951 gifted coin it is the evidence needed that instead of 2 coins known for the variety, a point dutifully noted in all the literature including Peck and the Norweb catalogue, there are in fact 3 because the 3rd was in the Terner collection and the other two examples could be proven to be elsewhere. It also means the listed provenances in past sales can be questioned and corrected using documentary evidence. This sort of information is priceless and irreplaceable.

Conders

Hey Yarm,

Never placed a bid through iCollector but did register for a few sales and monitored some pieces. I think Goldberg used to accept real-time internet bids via Ebay live which also required something like an extra 5%. I have bid live with other auction houses via internet and I have never had a problem. Plus, it is in every auctioneer's best interest to have their live internet bidding interface working at its best. It is very simple and quick, you usually just click on a button if you are interested in bidding up one increment.


As for the sale tickets...is there any mention that they are coming along with the slabbed tokens if won?

farthing

My guess is that the collection up for auction was sent out for certification by Goldbergs. Hopefully the envelopes and related documentation is still available.

Conders

Hope so too. It'd be crazy not to keep that material with the tokens. Sacrilege!

wybrit

I really like the various designs of the Conders, but I just can't handle another collecting direction right now. I leave the collecting of them up to farthing, who made a great post further up.

yellowkid

You won't get any reasons not to collect Conders from me, where else can you buy 18th century mint state pieces for $100? There are a number of ways to collect this series, I like pieces with social messages and those with animal images. I collect 18th century British ceramics and it is scary how close the images in transferware resemble those on the Conders. Don't fight it........