matte proof guys - did I dodge a bullet or miss a score?

sinin1

I have been periodically searching early Lincolns on the Bay for potential matte's

I bid on this but went past my comfort risk level - sold as a BU
seller has past feedback of cleaned coins and this one looks like a pumpkin

when blowing up coin, it shows some of the proof die diagnostics

obv -> die polish through TRUST, die polish near 19, junk under chin
rev -> die polish down from T in cent

rims look square to me - but can't tell what is on obverse top - funny angle and rounded or railroad like

Is there anyway to be 100% sure off a picture? or is it always a die roll - even if in TPG slab?
RWB frequently mentions dies being retired and used in circulation and bad coins being thrown in with circulation

ambro51

business strike all the way.

curly

Brother, you definately dodged a bullet.

BWRC

Here is the real deal.

sinin1

okay so I see the real deal - have a couple books on them - see pics here and at Heritage

what should I see or not see on the first coin I pictured to know it is a clean (probably from color) business strike?


luster looks cartwheel and should not be, but more satin or matte?
just inside the edge, the coin should be flatter and not show rounded/bottom of hill type level
more detail and definition on hair and beard
letters/date should be flatter and not rounded at all on tops
more granular surfaces


or is it just I am spatially and visually impaired? I remember it took me 6 months of looking at 1972 IKES to be able to understand/pick out type 2's

coinguy1

It doesn't display the strike, the squared edges or the surface texture of a Matte Proof.

badger

Would have fooled me. Thanks for the diagnostics.

Dave

sinin1

you guys are good
how about this one?


is there anything you can describe to tell me it is definitely business strike?
the letters even look square (which is needed isn't it?)

cohodk

The rims are rounded, especially as seen from 5 to 10 o'clock.

It is hard to see the entire rim in the photo BWRC posted, but notice how wide and square the rims are at 9 oclock.

There were 131 MILLION business strikes made in 1916 and 1000 matte proofs. I dont know the exact number of MPLs already in slabs, but lets say 500 are known, then the business strikes will outnumber the proofs by a factor of 250,000 to 1. Dont let this discourage you from looking for mpls, but the odds are incredibly stacked against you.

renomedphys

Rims look way too rounded to me. Nice BS anyway. Look directly at the edges for flat "mirror finish" surfaces. Parallel die ejection lines are the dead giveaway on a hard to tell coin.

ChrisRx

Shoot anytime I get to show this

ambro51

Do you want to know the easiest and most reliable way to verify a matte proof lincoln?




















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you read it on the slab label.

sinin1

I have learned long ago

that just because it says something on a slab does not make it so



you still need to know that the designation or variety is correct


and as far as I am concerned matte proofs are just a fancy variety - worth 30-60x regulars

ambro51

Well......when you think youre better picking MPLs off ebay based on little pictures than a team of 3 professional graders and an finalizer at the Worlds finest professional grading services............................................

WaterSport

We have seen this time and time again with well struck 1909, 1910, and 1916 cents. If you held a raw matte in your hand while looking at a photo of a coin, you well see the difference. Now if you just think it might be a MPL and have no MPL for comparison just look at those rounded rims, be it on the OBV or REV or both sides. Coupled with a lack of being centered - makes it NOT an MPL. But I still like Brian W. diagnostics best - comparing the edge of the MPL to a circ wheat.

WS

Duane

Hi, sinin1,

The MPLs (especially the 1909VDB and 1915) can be tricky. But the 1916s are not too bad (IMHO). 1916 Matte Proof Buffalo Nickels are another story

There are two dies states for the +/- 600 1916 Lincolns minted, and in terms of diagnostics, both states are very well photographed in Kevin Flynn's "Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs (2009). I have an extra copy if you need one.

Differentiating MPLs from circulation strikes usually requires judging not one, but a compilation of coin elements, including: 1) the rims [edges in and outside included] 2) the surface textures, including ANY dings 3) *diagnostics* and for some years, even planchet color. Experience is the best instructor, though, and usually, if it seems too good to be true ......

When I started collecting, I thought every nice Lincoln I saw was a MPL! But once I saw my first 3 or 4 '1916s in-hand, I was not fooled anymore by the circulation strikes for the most part. Best of luck.

Regards,
Duane

sinin1

thx Duane, I already have Flynn's book


it is the seeing in hand part I am having difficulty with


and then the slabbed coins - which usually obscures the edge and rim

Duane

That can be a problem, as the coins are expensive. Knowing the wrath I'll invoke saying this, the newer NGC 4 prong holders do show the rims nicely (again, IMHO), for study purposes. There really is a 'know it when I see it' element to these coins.

But for analysis purposes with the MPLs, to a greater or lesser degree on all - you will NOT see this same luster on any MPL (that I've ever seen) as on a CS. The CS will always have a 'cartwheel luster' when turned in the light. MPLs will not - an MPL will generally exhibit a muted 'glow' to the eye and appear to have thousands of tiny pebbles on its surface when magnified about 30x. No matter how a CS may appear to the naked eye in terms of a sandblasted look, the high mag is a dead give-away. On the 1916, Matt Chapman even established that the 'pattern' of microscopic 'bumps' were in fact in the same pattern (or exact locations!) on the surface of the obverse of 3 1916s, when greatly magnified. he ran the actualy comparative photos on a message board link. You may want to reference this old link (this is all from memory, so please forgive not referencing the exact link - maybe Matt or Brian Wagner remembers). This information will likely be formally published at some point. We found it as evidence of the dies being sand-blasted, and not the coins themselves (as in the MP gold series).

The diagnostics as well are unique to MPLs. - As mentioned, two very specific die states that I'm aware of, and you will see the diagnostics of one or the other state in every coin from the '16 issue - no exceptions that I'm aware of. Estimates by Brian Wagner are that one die state is roughly 8 to 1 more rare than the other (die 2 being that state). My experience confirms this. I've only seen two coins from the die state two (chip inside the '9' of 1916, and very cool circular striations behind Lincoln's neck).

The 1909s and 1915s do not always show the diagnostics as readily, and some I have seen actually appear to be mis-attributed, which also happens. I suppose this happens with the '16s, as well, but I've not knowingly seen it.

The last bit of research info you may want to consider is that at this point; it is unknown as to whether any of the MPL dies were used to strike circulation coins after the proof service was complete. In the Buffalo series, this was done, and causes much confusion, so it's not unthinkable with Lincolns, but the fact that the MPLs were prepared with more care and had a different striking routine (2x as opposed to 1x) will usually give the MPL a sharper diagnostic presentation.

That all I have, and my fingers are tired

Any feedback you get would be welcome for the MatteHeads, I'm sure!

cohodk

<< <i>Well......when you think youre better picking MPLs off ebay based on little pictures than a team of 3 professional graders and an finalizer at the Worlds finest professional grading services............................................ >>




This is probably 99% true. I say 99% because I have seen mis-attributed MPLs in both NGC and PCGS holders.

Duane

No argument there! Righty righty