matte proof guys - did I dodge a bullet or miss a score?
sinin1
Posts: 7,500 ✭
I have been periodically searching early Lincolns on the Bay for potential matte's
I bid on this but went past my comfort risk level - sold as a BU
seller has past feedback of cleaned coins and this one looks like a pumpkin
when blowing up coin, it shows some of the proof die diagnostics
obv -> die polish through TRUST, die polish near 19, junk under chin
rev -> die polish down from T in cent
rims look square to me - but can't tell what is on obverse top - funny angle and rounded or railroad like
Is there anyway to be 100% sure off a picture? or is it always a die roll - even if in TPG slab?
RWB frequently mentions dies being retired and used in circulation and bad coins being thrown in with circulation
I bid on this but went past my comfort risk level - sold as a BU
seller has past feedback of cleaned coins and this one looks like a pumpkin
when blowing up coin, it shows some of the proof die diagnostics
obv -> die polish through TRUST, die polish near 19, junk under chin
rev -> die polish down from T in cent
rims look square to me - but can't tell what is on obverse top - funny angle and rounded or railroad like
Is there anyway to be 100% sure off a picture? or is it always a die roll - even if in TPG slab?
RWB frequently mentions dies being retired and used in circulation and bad coins being thrown in with circulation
0
Comments
Brother, you definately dodged a bullet.
Here is the real deal.
what should I see or not see on the first coin I pictured to know it is a clean (probably from color) business strike?
luster looks cartwheel and should not be, but more satin or matte?
just inside the edge, the coin should be flatter and not show rounded/bottom of hill type level
more detail and definition on hair and beard
letters/date should be flatter and not rounded at all on tops
more granular surfaces
or is it just I am spatially and visually impaired? I remember it took me 6 months of looking at 1972 IKES to be able to understand/pick out type 2's
Dave
Link to 1950 - 1964 Proof Registry Set
1938 - 1964 Proof Jeffersons w/ Varieties
how about this one?
is there anything you can describe to tell me it is definitely business strike?
the letters even look square (which is needed isn't it?)
It is hard to see the entire rim in the photo BWRC posted, but notice how wide and square the rims are at 9 oclock.
There were 131 MILLION business strikes made in 1916 and 1000 matte proofs. I dont know the exact number of MPLs already in slabs, but lets say 500 are known, then the business strikes will outnumber the proofs by a factor of 250,000 to 1. Dont let this discourage you from looking for mpls, but the odds are incredibly stacked against you.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
keep going..
this information is really worth it.........
you read it on the slab label.
that just because it says something on a slab does not make it so
you still need to know that the designation or variety is correct
and as far as I am concerned matte proofs are just a fancy variety - worth 30-60x regulars
WS
The MPLs (especially the 1909VDB and 1915) can be tricky. But the 1916s are not too bad (IMHO). 1916 Matte Proof Buffalo Nickels are another story
There are two dies states for the +/- 600 1916 Lincolns minted, and in terms of diagnostics, both states are very well photographed in Kevin Flynn's "Lincoln Cent Matte Proofs (2009). I have an extra copy if you need one.
Differentiating MPLs from circulation strikes usually requires judging not one, but a compilation of coin elements, including: 1) the rims [edges in and outside included] 2) the surface textures, including ANY dings 3) *diagnostics* and for some years, even planchet color. Experience is the best instructor, though, and usually, if it seems too good to be true ......
When I started collecting, I thought every nice Lincoln I saw was a MPL! But once I saw my first 3 or 4 '1916s in-hand, I was not fooled anymore by the circulation strikes for the most part. Best of luck.
Regards,
Duane
it is the seeing in hand part I am having difficulty with
and then the slabbed coins - which usually obscures the edge and rim
But for analysis purposes with the MPLs, to a greater or lesser degree on all - you will NOT see this same luster on any MPL (that I've ever seen) as on a CS. The CS will always have a 'cartwheel luster' when turned in the light. MPLs will not - an MPL will generally exhibit a muted 'glow' to the eye and appear to have thousands of tiny pebbles on its surface when magnified about 30x. No matter how a CS may appear to the naked eye in terms of a sandblasted look, the high mag is a dead give-away. On the 1916, Matt Chapman even established that the 'pattern' of microscopic 'bumps' were in fact in the same pattern (or exact locations!) on the surface of the obverse of 3 1916s, when greatly magnified. he ran the actualy comparative photos on a message board link. You may want to reference this old link (this is all from memory, so please forgive not referencing the exact link - maybe Matt or Brian Wagner remembers). This information will likely be formally published at some point. We found it as evidence of the dies being sand-blasted, and not the coins themselves (as in the MP gold series).
The diagnostics as well are unique to MPLs. - As mentioned, two very specific die states that I'm aware of, and you will see the diagnostics of one or the other state in every coin from the '16 issue - no exceptions that I'm aware of. Estimates by Brian Wagner are that one die state is roughly 8 to 1 more rare than the other (die 2 being that state). My experience confirms this. I've only seen two coins from the die state two (chip inside the '9' of 1916, and very cool circular striations behind Lincoln's neck).
The 1909s and 1915s do not always show the diagnostics as readily, and some I have seen actually appear to be mis-attributed, which also happens. I suppose this happens with the '16s, as well, but I've not knowingly seen it.
The last bit of research info you may want to consider is that at this point; it is unknown as to whether any of the MPL dies were used to strike circulation coins after the proof service was complete. In the Buffalo series, this was done, and causes much confusion, so it's not unthinkable with Lincolns, but the fact that the MPLs were prepared with more care and had a different striking routine (2x as opposed to 1x) will usually give the MPL a sharper diagnostic presentation.
That all I have, and my fingers are tired
Any feedback you get would be welcome for the MatteHeads, I'm sure!
<< <i>Well......when you think youre better picking MPLs off ebay based on little pictures than a team of 3 professional graders and an finalizer at the Worlds finest professional grading services............................................
This is probably 99% true. I say 99% because I have seen mis-attributed MPLs in both NGC and PCGS holders.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear