.

FilthyBroke

pendragon1998

I was going to post about where unwanted posters would be welcome, but I'm prevented by

"Rule 7) This is a PCGS forum. Posts relating to other grading companies or service are not allowed. Those posts will be removed and your posting privileges may be removed as well. "

ASUtodd

If that is implemented, no more post from me... of course some folks would welcome that!
Todd

ajaan

A lot less posters I would think.

Hussulo

If this forum became one only for PCGS Dealer, Members and Subscribers, I would not be able to post here.

If I hadn't been able to use this forum for free first I'm sure I wouldn't have moved on to submitting coins to PCGS or have started a registry set.

I have enjoyed being a member here, I've learnt a lot and would like to think I have shared some knowledge and helped others out to.
If this forum becomes one in which you have to be a PCGS Dealer, Members, Subscriber or one which you have to pay to be a member of I would just move on. There are a lot of free forums out there some of which I'm already a member of.

I don't see the point of charging people to use something when there are plenty of free similar products out there. Some have tried to charge people to use forums before but I don't think that went too well. The main place where you make money on forums is advertising, this should hopefully cover any overhead expenses. In a way keeping it free to use is also advertising your brand and helping to attract new members or users of your product.

Think of all the free information, advice and knowledge some of the non PCGS Dealers, Members and Subscribers have shared with us over the years under the PCGS forum. Surely that in itself is a major kudos and reason for keeping the forum open and free to all.

FilthyBroke

I doubt that I'd be here either. I also joined the forums before joining PCGS, and wouldn't have joined PCGS if not for the info provided here first. I'll sure hate to see this change made, but it's their call. I hope they read through some of our concerns and take some of our opinions into consideration.

Kurt4

I've never submitted a coin to PCGS. With most of my coins it's just not worth the money. Plus I don't have the extra money. I doubt that I would join PCGS just to stay here. I would however pay a small yearly fee to post here and stay on the boards. Maybe $20 a year for those of us that don't need the full package. I belong to another forum (non-coin) and every year about 10 of us chip in to cover costs.

SYRACUSIAN

If I hadn't been able to use this forum for free first I'm sure I wouldn't have moved on to submitting coins to PCGS or have started a registry set.


Same here.



No need to charge for posting if you're the leader in your area, which PCGS clearly is IMHO. They shouldn't fear members expressing opinions on competitive services either.


On the other hand, W&A is pretty much self regulated and Willis' post was intended for the US forum.

JCMhouston

Unfortunately for me I'd be gone also as I am not a paying member.

FilthyBroke

<< <i>On the other hand, W&A is pretty much self regulated and Willis' post was intended for the US forum. >>





This is true, and I thought about their reasoning for posting there and not across the board. Maybe they will clarify this for us.

I would imagine that any major change would cover us all and not just the U.S. Coin forums.

wybrit

I'd still be here, but there is a distinct possibility that I might not be a paying member after 2010, since I am (for the most part) done slabbing except for the occasional upgrade or new piece.

"Chicken/egg" : Until a couple of years ago, I had only one year of membership with PCGS (and that was to grade 3 specific pieces to authenticate Hong Kong and Straits Settlement dollars, frequently counterfeited). This forum led me to becoming a paying member again. If the rules had been put into place a few years back, that might never have happened and PCGS would not have gotten a whole lot of my hard-earned $$.

There is a certain market value to allowing all comers to post. If the forum is self-moderated, like this one is, there is seldom a problem dealing with and extricating the spammers and troublemakers.

olmanjon

You have a forbidden word in your message post. Please click the back button in your browser and remove this word from your post. The words that are forbidden are highlighted for you.


After reading some of the posts on the US side I can certantly understand where the president is coming from. They seem to be a completely different breede of kitty cat then from us on the world forumn. They have gotten so bad in taking potshots at each other that I don't even read there posts anymore. However the world forum seems to be made up of ladies and gentlemen. It did seem a little harsh the way it was put out by the president however. Perhaps this will tone down the US forum posters. Happy new year everyone, Olmanjon

ASUtodd

Well we do have a few bad apples but usually we weed them out. I have tried to post and read over in the US section but I just can't do it.... makes my blood pressure rise!
Todd

ajaan

Anyone know the reason for a possible charge to post here? Is it a revenue thing or as stated

<< <i>No more anonymous posters >>

I would think there must be some way of getting rid of anonymous posters other than making people get a subscription to PCGS.

spoon

I'm not sure that's a statement of intent to weed out and ban all who aren't currently members in good standing. Such a move would only display a gross misunderstanding of technology and would be a shot in the foot. No, rather it seems a frustrated if slightly chest-thumping screed against unruly behaviour. Which I agree with. It's their forum, if they don't like what someone does on it they are fully entitled to poof that user/post/thread/whatever. Fairness and common sense should allow for a more lenient approach, but that's not always possible.

Now if this is some scream to get us revenue generating customers who happen to use PCGS services through a local dealer/friend or some means other than a paid subscription off their lawn -- well, that would be idiotic. Reasons to keep a public forum open to all:

1) The cost is really trivial. You're spending money on a server for your website, why not dedicate a small chunk of diskspace/bandwidth to a forum?
2) Brand. Obviously PCGS understands the potential negative impact on brand a forum can have, but they seem to not fully appreciate the positives, which greatly outweigh that. Creating a friendly, open atmosphere where people can engage their community is a good thing - the company that does it best will likely see better results in earnings. Plus, it's really easy to exaggerate the negative effects. We're all adults and most people have been using the internet for a while now. We understand that there are going to be annoying people in any online community - no different than the offline world. Attempting to create something pure is just impractical and causes undue strain for legitimate users.
3) The real cost of a strict policy is greater than a hands-off approach. You'd need to call up your geeks to implement a filtering system tying the subscriber database to the forum user database. A quick and dirty implementation shouldn't be too difficult, but one that works without side effects is a bit trickier. What happens when a subscriber is a week late on paying for the new year? Does he get locked out? his account (posts and PMs) deleted or merely suspended? Adding a layer accessing the subscriber database could open up new vulnerabilities on that. Would malicious code from the forum allow a hacker to penetrate and access the subscriber DB and all the sensitive info contained therein?

I dunno, this seems like the sort of frustration borne of misunderstanding that led to the loss of the Weekly Swap. Yes, online communities have their issues. But these aren't really problems in need of solutions. Trying to fix these minor issues seem to only lead to greater problems.

7Jaguars

I am with the mini-darksider herd. I think that these columns generate not only good will but respect for PCGS. It is absolutely their perogative to shut anybody down at anytime, and whether they care or not is another matter, but if done with little thought will likely generate negative interest.

Frankly, discussion of other TPGs has, at least to my memory, been almost always positive to what would seem to be PCGS interests; I must confess to not being their spokesperson however. Lively discourse with all due respect to posters and PCGS might be seen to be a distinct positive, but again would say I can not speak for PCGS.

I am not quite sure what being a member means, as I do submit to PCGS and have a good number of the coins in my collection slabbed with them; if this is not membership then I would not qualify and would with all due respect let go of my interests.

I just hope that the situation is not as severe here on the darkside, but will pray for the best.

SwK

Hi I am new member, I am presently a collector of high grade British and Roman coins, patterns and medallions and do not know what is happening, i do know the quality of chat has been great, so much so I am finding an interest in USA patterns which must be graded.

Please anyone addvice me the meaning of everything that is going on.

Does it mean I have to stop chatting and moe somewere else and get the grading done when I start aquiring coins? i am confused!

Interesting I have made contact with 5 people who can assist in the introducing of me to US coin

br

FilthyBroke

<< <i>Hi I am new member, I am presently a collector of high grade British and Roman coins, patterns and medallions and do not know what is happening, i do know the quality of chat has been great, so much so I am finding an interest in USA patterns which must be graded.

Please anyone addvice me the meaning of everything that is going on.

Does it mean I have to stop chatting and moe somewere else and get the grading done when I start aquiring coins? i am confused!

Interesting I have made contact with 5 people who can assist in the introducing of me to US coin

br >>





I wouldn't worry about it. Sometimes things heat up over on the U.S. Coins forum, and it takes an intervention to staighten things out and get it under control. I have seen a few occasions where the rules had to be re-posted to remind some members. If they do make changes, I guess that it's their right to do so. I hope it blows over, but if not there are at least a few other options for us. I would say you should go ahead and enjoy the forums as we always have until otherwise notified by management.

I've really enjoyed my time here, and the free info and advice so many have provided.

Hussulo

Hi I am new member, I am presently a collector of high grade British and Roman coins, patterns and medallions and do not know what is happening, i do know the quality of chat has been great, so much so I am finding an interest in USA patterns which must be graded. Please anyone addvice me the meaning of everything that is going on. Does it mean I have to stop chatting and moe somewere else and get the grading done when I start aquiring coins? i am confused! Interesting I have made contact with 5 people who can assist in the introducing of me to US coin

Jeff not sure exactly what is going to happen but it seems there have been quite a bit of personnel attacks, etc.. over on the US forum on this site. This has led to Don Willis President, PCGS posting rules:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=755959

Over here on the World coins forum the chat tends to be more civilised.

There was also a quote stating:
>>>>> Actually I would love to restrict posting to this forum to PCGS Dealer, Members and Subscribers. No more anonymous posters. We are looking at upgrading our software to do that. >>


The thing is quite a few forum members that frequent this forum that don't fall into the above category. Even though some of us do specifically buy or get our coins graded by PCGS through a third party.

I think what is implied by member, subscriber is the options below:
http://www.pcgs.com/join/

There are benefits of being a fully paid member as you can submit coins direct. However for the likes of myself who only really sends the occasional coin and living in the UK it perhaps isn't viable.

There are also some members that don't believe in getting their coins slabbed/ graded or whom don't collect coins valuable enough to warrant them getting them slabbed/graded but whom still enjoy posting and learning from the forum.

As for stopping using the forum. We will need to wait and see. Hopefully it is as others suggest a warning to the bad apples that spoil it for the decent users.

I'm not also 100% sure if limiting the use of the forum to only PCGS Dealer, Members and Subscribers will weed out the bad apples.

SwK

Hi Hus thanks

br
j

cladking

About the only thing we can do is what this particular forum
already does well; try to be civil.











Heavily edited because the point was previously made and the post might constitute a better argument against my position than for it.

pendragon1998

I would hope that if the majority of posters in World and Ancient were excluded, that they'd be willing to regroup in another forum.

bidask

I am a paying member......its not onerous, just another very modest expense in the pursuit of the hobby I love.

RobP

As Hus has already pointed out, not all people using this forum can afford to slab their coins, have coins worth slabbing or indeed wish to have them slabbed. This doesn't go hand in hand with an inability to contribute usefully to discussions and so the likely departure of at least the first two categories of collector would be a real negative. Lack of funds for buying coins usually goes hand in hand with less reading material to inform yourself. In a worst case it would reinforce their exclusion not only on economic but also with respect to knowledge.

mudskippie

If PCGS is about to restrict postings to pcgs members/dealers only, it's no way any particular forum will be spared. Why? It's just too complicated, hence more work for IT department!

After reading DW's post, I think that's what he wants to do, because the forums obviously needed more control. But whether PCGS is going to restrict postings only to "paid" members/dealers is another story. IMO, PCGS will not do such a thing, why? It simply isn't a good business practice.

The idea of paying to post, or "pay to post" is nonsense. As a business man, I would offer my knowledge/opinion/advice for a fee, as a poster of a hobby, I would contribute my knowledge/opinion/advice for fun, but I would never pay to contribute.

For some that "beg" PCGS to keep the forum open; please stop! You should know that PCGS is not here to serve you; in fact, they are here to take advantage of your need so that they can maximize their shareholders return. In other words, please stop because you made us look bad, like we can't survive without them when their survial is based on our yearly membership renewal and submissions. FYI, I am not trying to be mean to anyone, and I am not anti PCGS, but a big fan!

DennisH

According to current and past friends at PCGS, the plug for the entire message board merry-go-round has come very close to being pulled more than once in the last couple of years, essentially because of the too-frequent reckless behavior by too many unrestrained egos in the U.S. Forum. Multiple warnings have been issued, including one by PCGS owner David Hall. The World & Ancient Forum, however, is a blueprint of how everyone can and should conduct themselves, and proof that it can be done consistently. So far the latest message is getting through over in the U.S. Forum, and one person who committed "message board suicide" with a derogatory thread shortly after the rules were posted did not go unnoticed. Sadly, however, history suggests that attention spans over there are short and that it's only a matter of time before juvenile behavior resumes.

tbirde56

<< <i>There are also some members that don't believe in getting their coins slabbed/ graded or whom don't collect coins valuable enough to warrant them getting them slabbed/graded but whom still enjoy posting and learning from the forum. >>



I'm def in that category.



<< <i>You should know that PCGS is not here to serve you; in fact, they are here to take advantage of your need so that they can maximize their shareholders return. >>



Like Krause and their guides, we are lucky to have what we have from them but the world will not end without them.
Information, its exchange and the enjoyment to discover more IS the hobby. It will find the path of least resistance.
These metal disks are the subjects of human curiosity and instinctual search for knowledge for most. Just pretty things to be hoarded and bragged about and sold for profit for those few unlucky ones that just don't get it.

Thank you PCGS for the Forum but all things eventually will pass with time. I hope that particular time is not in my lifespan though. If it is, we will manage to find another conduit for our interests and communications.

Walmann

I was under the impression that rules that apply to the US don't apply to the world, so why should it have an impact?

Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed.

On the other hand Ebay is beginning to look less contentious.

FilthyBroke

<< <i>I was under the impression that rules that apply to the US don't apply to the world, so why should it have an impact?

Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed.

On the other hand Ebay is beginning to look less contentious. >>




I think that these rules are implied for all forums, but they probably don't have to remind the others on a regular basis. If major changes are made, such as 'paid members only', it would most likely affect us all. I don't want to have to pay for a membership specifically to use the boards. It wouldn't help me to pay for a membership otherwise, as I don't think that PCGS will even grade many of the medals and jetons that I have been collecting lately.

As a side thought - Is there even a list of world coins/medals/tokens that they will grade? Last I heard they wouldn't go back before 1600, but this could have changed. Anyone know about this?

DennisH

Things must have changed because I have talers and Scotland Ryals from the 1500s in PCGS holders, and I've seen English silver pennies from the 1200s and French gold coins from the 1300s in PCGS holders.

coinkat

I really do not think there will be much of an impact on this forum- it has worked well and there is no reason that should not continue.

Unfortunately, there have been some excellent questions/threads/issues that have been raised that for what ever reason fail to capture attention of folks...

I do not have an explanation... even though I have participated here awhile

coinpictures

Running my own message board as well as being a moderator on several others, I think it's pretty safe to say that if Mr. Willis makes it a pay-only board, that will apply to all forums, not just the U.S. section.

And PCGS will be shooting itself in the foot by doing so.

The changes being made and hinted at over the last year or two by PCGS seem to be indicative of a company desperate to halt sliding revenue, but not realizing that the changes being made will ultimately make the problem worse.

EDIT: I said more, but after reading Mr. Willis's post apparently I'm not allowed to post my actual opinions any more.

JimK

"Actually I would love to restrict posting to this forum to PCGS Dealer, Members and Subscribers. No more anonymous posters. We are looking at upgrading our software to do that. "

This statement concerns me greatly. It appears that by responses generated so far- the US Coin forum is looking at losing perhaps 50% of it's current posters and this forum more like 60%.
I hope the powers that be at PCGS reconsider as these forums would lose a lot knowledge, comradery, and folks with serious collecting interest!
I for one as a paying PCGS Member, Registry Set Participant, Brand-Loyal PCGS Customer, US and World & Ancient Coins Forum Participant would be greatly sorrowed if this plan of action proceeds.
Jim

OchoReales

Folks, let us remember that Don made this post (to which I totally agree with considering the "Wild West" mentality and language that some of the lightsiders adhere to and seem to live by) on the US Forums and not on the World & Ancient Forums. I do hope the reasoning behind this is that this Forum (as previously stated) acts with decorum and civility hence the absence of Rule posting here. Until this Forum gets the same tongue lashing (which would, in my opinion be a complete shock) it's probably best to put all speculation to rest and just ride this out.

" Did we quit when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No! Then, who's with me?" John Belushi 'Animal House' 1979

sumnom

I am not a member of PCGS so it would be the end of my time here if that rule were imposed.

Aethelred

Given the tone of the comments in question I am not sure I wish to continue posting here.

OchoReales

<< <i>Given the tone of the comments in question I am not sure I wish to continue posting here. >>




????????????????????????????

coinpictures

I could be wrong, but I think he means that Mr. Willis's comments come across as harsh and heavy-handed. I concur, as the reaction seems a bit over-the-top. I don't know just how many internet message boards Mr. Willis has ever been on, but even at its worst, the U.S. Coins forum is absolutely tame, warm, and cuddly compared to many out there.

Dollar

No more posts for me too. I joined the forum three years ago and had done several transaction with some members. If the rule is implemented, I definitely will move on. However, I will miss you guys.




<< <i>If that is implemented, no more post from me
Todd >>

OchoReales

What is up with all of the whining? Mark Feld said it best over in the US Forum. Don's post was mostly likely meant for the few US posters who habitually use bad language, are mean spirited and use the Forums as a personal soapbox. We are guests here and decorum needs to be followed. I don't understand why the Ancient and World Forum folks are getting so worked up over a post on the lightside. If it was meant for us, it would have been posted here as well. Everyone, please take a deep breath and back away from the keyboard. Too much speculation and not enough rationale! Now, let's get back to the reason why we are here on this Forum; to spread educational info, share pics of our 'babies' and have fun while doing so. Enough said on this subject!

satootoko

The new "Rules" posted in the US forum state:

<< <i>Rule 1) This is a [] forum [] provided for PCGS customers to exchange information regarding collecting US coins.

* * *

Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. >>



Seems to me that this clearly and unequivocally means they are clamping down on the cesspool, not the entire estate.

All I can say is 'bout time! Perhaps I can even go there once in a while now, instead of my annual visit to check out whether they have shaped up.

OchoReales

Thanks Roy, for saying what I did in a more concise manner!

Hussulo

I realise the rules posted on the US forum where meant for the US forum and as you say it was "most likely meant for the few US posters who habitually use bad language, are mean spirited and use the Forums as a personal soapbox. " and I'm quite happy to follow rules and believe some should be in place. My main concern would be for this forum to be only usable by members, subscribers or by payment only. If that happens over on the US forum I'm sure it will take affect on the World one too. I doubt they would only ask US forum members to pay but not World forum ones.

As you say though a lot of speculations and a few feathers ruffled over on the US forum (perhaps a good thing) maybe we should just wait and listen out for definite news and carry on like business as usual.



Edited to add:

Don't you think in a way though discussions like this thread are quite good? as when people do post their feelings PCGS may read them and take note before taking any drastic decisions and to me at least it shows what a barren place the World forum would become if the above speculative changes were to be implemented.

theboz11

Think I'll worry about it when it happens.

OchoReales

Absolutely Hus! These things should be discussed. However, I never did see anything in the list of Rules that even mentions 'paying members'. Correct me if I'm wrong but, Rule 1 says that this forum is for PCGS customers. It doesn't say anything about being a PCGS member. I believe that most, if not all of us have coins graded by PCGS. This would make us PCGS customers. Whether directly or indirectly, we are PCGS customers. So, I conclude by saying this; We should discuss openly our concerns based on the facts and not on rumors. I love you guys!

FilthyBroke

<< <i>Absolutely Hus! These things should be discussed. However, I never did see anything in the list of Rules that even mentions 'paying members'. Correct me if I'm wrong but, Rule 1 says that this forum is for PCGS customers. It doesn't say anything about being a PCGS member. I believe that most, if not all of us have coins graded by PCGS. This would make us PCGS customers. Whether directly or indirectly, we are PCGS customers. So, I conclude by saying this; We should discuss openly our concerns based on the facts and not on rumors. I love you guys! >>




The rules aren't really at issue here as the world/ancient forum is much more 'user friendly', for lack of a better term, and was just mentioned as a point of possible interest. The real issue was stated in the original post, quoting Mr. Willis himself. Please read through the whole OP for the quote as stated by management. This is where it is stated that they are working on software to modify the forum to exclude people. This I think is the more interesting issue.



edit to add quote from Don Willis--


>>>>> Actually I would love to restrict posting to this forum to PCGS Dealer, Members and Subscribers. No more anonymous posters. We are looking at upgrading our software to do that. >>



Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to stir up trouble, I just thought this was info that others over here might be interested in, and wanted to see what opinion was here.

OchoReales

I stand corrected.

FilthyBroke

<< <i>I stand corrected. >>




Think nothing of it. Besides, after reading some of yesterday's posts over there, I don't think they are even enforcing the rules. There may be no changes made, but we should probably know what's in store in case one day they just shut it down.

That's it for my speculation. I know of another nice place where all are welcome to enjoy free speech and coin-related discussions, so no big deal I guess.

Sylvestius

Oh dear, I think i'd be eliminated pretty quickly when the tide turns since i'm not a paying member. It's a shame cos I've learned a lot and shared a lot with this forum over the past 6 years.

IloiloKano

<< <i>Think I'll worry about it when it happens. >>


Ditto, though I currently have a Platinum membership (for the free certs).

terribleredmonster

If they try to make us pay, many if not most of us will leave. I know I will. I predict that if PCGS does in fact make people join its "collectors' club" in order to use its forums they will become the new sleepy hollow. There are several fine sites out there that serve forums which would be happy to receive nearly any one of us. A few of them already have a respectable amount of traffic, experienced and educated posters and a good community vibe. It would be a dire mistake for our hosts to think that they are the only game in town just because at the moment they happen to be the best.