Seattle Mariners 2010
Boopotts
Posts: 6,784 ✭✭
in Sports Talk
Does anyone else see this team as the MLB equivalent of the band geek who's trying to hang with the cool kids on the varsity football squad? Putting aside some of the obvious issues, like taking on Jack Wilson's obscene contract, this team seems to completely lack direction and focus. Keeping Griffey in a Mariner uni for another year? No thanks. Taking on Milton Bradley, who's perhaps the most unpopular player in MLB since perhaps Dick Allen? Again, I'll pass. Renting Cliff Lee for a season? Keeping Bedard and his glass arm on the roster for another year?Uh-uh. Shoveling buckets full of cash at Chone Figgins? Hint to Mariner fan- if Figgins was worth the money, Moreno would have resigned him.
Everything about this team just screams 80-82 at the end of October 2010, and loose talk from the front office about how the squad is 'laying the foundation' for a deep post-season run in 2011. For the sake of Mariner fans I hope I'm wrong, but this off season makes me think that Ozzy had the M's in mind when he wrote 'the road to nowhere leads to me'.
Everything about this team just screams 80-82 at the end of October 2010, and loose talk from the front office about how the squad is 'laying the foundation' for a deep post-season run in 2011. For the sake of Mariner fans I hope I'm wrong, but this off season makes me think that Ozzy had the M's in mind when he wrote 'the road to nowhere leads to me'.
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M's are for real.
As far as the Lee 'rental', the Mariners gave up precious little, 3 prospects, one of which might see action this year as a reliever, but the other two are years away from being MLB ready. Meanwhile, they get a top 5 pitcher in the game (and make no mistake, Cliff Lee is in the top 5) at a price that will have him underpaid for the season he should produce. Felix and Lee is the best 1-2 starting pair in the bigs. No, Lee won't be in Seattle next year, but it will show Felix the M's are serious about putting a contending team in place, and that will reap huge benefits when it comes time to re-negotiate his contract next year.
And what loose talk are you talking about? The M's front office is the most tight-lipped in baseball. Don't believe me? Then tell me who had (a) Lee pegged to go to Seattle before the trade happened and (b) Silva going to Chicago for Bradley? Even the most plugged in people in baseball were blind-sided, with Jayson Stark of ESPN specifically stating before the Bradley-Silva deal happening that he wouldn't be going to Seattle.
Don't be surprised to see Seattle in the post-season in 2010. Don't forget, the Angels are the only other decent team in the AL West, and they just lost their best, most consistent bat (Figgins), their #1 starter (Lackey) and they've replaced Vlad with Matsui. The Angels are the team struggling to establish an identity, not the Mariners.
Please check your shorts.
<< <i>Kind of refreshing to hear about something other than the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, or the Mets. >>
You're right - I'm dam sick & tired of all the Yankees, Mets, and Red Sox threads.
Man, it's so nice to have a real GM. Jackie Z is amazing, and he's not done yet, as they still need a left handed stick w/pop.
I only question the Griffey re-sign.
Go M's!
Dave
The thing about keeping Griffey on the team is how popular he is in the Pacific Northwest. I grew up in the PNW and a lot of my friends back home were so excited when he rejoined the Mariners. One friend liked it enough that he actually went to a game for the first time in years. That's not a huge statement of support, obviously, but I have to believe that there are thousands of other people just like him that remember how great it was to see The Kid playing in Seattle and wanted to see it again. So I think having Griffey on the team has as much to do with filling seats as it does scoring runs.
<< <i>Boopotts, its apparent you haven't been following the Mariners in any capacity other than what's been reported on ESPN, and, if you're not a fan of the team, that's understandable. But to sit there and pass judgment and state there is no direction is just a lack of knowledge speaking. The new GM, when he came in to replace the previous one, had a vision of high OBP guys who could play above average defense, who sees a flaw in the way players are paid. He knows that a run prevented is just as valuable as a run scored, but defensive guys are highly underpaid. So employing that logic, he put together a team that won 85 games despite being outscored, and only a year removed from a disastrous 2008 season in which they lost more than 100 games. You fail to mention bringing in Chone Figgins, another high OBP guy, who, along with Ichiro, will be a lethal 1-2 combo to set the table.
As far as the Lee 'rental', the Mariners gave up precious little, 3 prospects, one of which might see action this year as a reliever, but the other two are years away from being MLB ready. Meanwhile, they get a top 5 pitcher in the game (and make no mistake, Cliff Lee is in the top 5) at a price that will have him underpaid for the season he should produce. Felix and Lee is the best 1-2 starting pair in the bigs. No, Lee won't be in Seattle next year, but it will show Felix the M's are serious about putting a contending team in place, and that will reap huge benefits when it comes time to re-negotiate his contract next year.
And what loose talk are you talking about? The M's front office is the most tight-lipped in baseball. Don't believe me? Then tell me who had (a) Lee pegged to go to Seattle before the trade happened and (b) Silva going to Chicago for Bradley? Even the most plugged in people in baseball were blind-sided, with Jayson Stark of ESPN specifically stating before the Bradley-Silva deal happening that he wouldn't be going to Seattle.
Don't be surprised to see Seattle in the post-season in 2010. Don't forget, the Angels are the only other decent team in the AL West, and they just lost their best, most consistent bat (Figgins), their #1 starter (Lackey) and they've replaced Vlad with Matsui. The Angels are the team struggling to establish an identity, not the Mariners. >>
Actually, Brian, what I know about the Mariners could fit into a thimble. But it's been awhile since you've had the opportunity to sound off on the M's, so in the spirit of the season I thought I'd give you that opportunity.
Go M's!
A NEW OWNER ON THE WAY!!!
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
Unless Rowland-Smith picks it up, they are one bat and/or one SP away
from being a contender. I've always liked Aardsma. What were the Cubs
thinking?
BTW: Cubby=Cub Fan
<< <i>Kind of refreshing to hear about something other than the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, or the Mets. >>
If you like MLB baseball played in minor league towns I suppose you have a point.
This should pee off those banned from this forum 20 times over
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Dave
<< <i>Anything other than news about the NY Yankee Roid-Boys is ALWAYS refreshing.
Dave >>
"Roid-Boys" are ALL OVER the league. Otherwise, great insight.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
And that makes it right? Classic NY logic. Just classic....
Dave
<< <i>Considering that the salary for both pitchers will probably be in the $45 million range beginning next year, it's probably beyond the reach of the Mariners, who will probably pay about $25-30M less than that for them this year. >>
If they sign for that much money then I'm sure that no team would be able to keep both of them. But at $45 million that would be $22.5 each . . . I know they are both great, but I don't think that will happen given the economy and what other pitchers are making. $36 million, give or take (probably give), seems more likely to me.
CC will average $23 mil between '09-15
Santana gets $22.9 between '08-13
Halladay gets $13 million this year and $20 between '11-13
Zambrano gets $18.3 between '08-12
Lackey just got $16.5 for '10-14
Burnett also gets $16.5 for '09-13
I think Hernandez will get more than Lee because of his age. But I think both Lee and Hernandez will get more than Lackey and Burnett but I can't see either one of them making more than Halladay. So that's why I would guesstimate the total at about $18-$19 million per year each.
The Mariners had a payroll of $117 million in '08 and almost $99 in '09 so it's not like they are completely unwilling to spend money.
Also, your comment about NY says it all. You are NY hating biased fool. Yippee for you.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
no but it's common sense. The Phillies dealt Lee not just because they acquired Halladay, but because in their extension talks, Lee's people were asking for Sabathia money...ie $22M a year. So when you couple that with Felix's agent asking for $100M over 5-6 years how do you expect to pay C.Lee and Felix and Ichiro all at least $18-20M+ per year and expect to fill out a roster unless they plan on spending Yankee money?..especially when the M's are still in desperate need for a run producing middle of the lineup hitter at 1B or LF. I'm guessing if the M's had that kind of money to toss around they would've been a little more active in pursuing J.Bay, considering he admitted a desire to play near his home in BC.
The Yanks virtually embrace it...anything to win.
Sit down with a piece of paper and write down all the confirmed Yank Roids. Do the same for the Mariners. Then report back your findings.
Dave
<< <i>Ohhhhhh....'granite head' ...very intelligent. Impressive....
The Yanks virtually embrace it...anything to win.
Sit down with a piece of paper and write down all the confirmed Yank Roids. Do the same for the Mariners. Then report back your findings.
Dave >>
This is not about my intelligence. That has nothing to do with you being a dope.
You are either a 14 year old or a dope. You tell me.
Your arguement is ignorant and filled with hateful bias.
Sit down with a piece of paper and write down all the confirmed roid users in the game.
Then you report your findings. Either you shut your piehole or you start calling every other team in the league
that has had or has roid users dopey names.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
start with anyone who has played for Tony LaRussa since 1988...
"Dope" is a neat word, but what's the point?
Let me help you guys get started:
Yanks:
--------
AROD
Mariners:
------------
Get busy.
Dave
<< <i>no but it's common sense. The Phillies dealt Lee not just because they acquired Halladay, but because in their extension talks, Lee's people were asking for Sabathia money...ie $22M a year. So when you couple that with Felix's agent asking for $100M over 5-6 years how do you expect to pay C.Lee and Felix and Ichiro all at least $18-20M+ per year and expect to fill out a roster unless they plan on spending Yankee money?..especially when the M's are still in desperate need for a run producing middle of the lineup hitter at 1B or LF. I'm guessing if the M's had that kind of money to toss around they would've been a little more active in pursuing J.Bay, considering he admitted a desire to play near his home in BC. >>
I hate to derail the derailing of this thread, but I'm going to do it anyway.
So I guess the consensus is that the Mariners shouldn't try to focus on signing both pitchers because it's unrealistic financially. Even so, won't the Mariners get a compensation draft pick if Lee signs with another team? Having him for a year at what is an apparent bargain of a salary plus getting an extra first round pick sounds like a good move to me.
BTW, I think the Mariners didn't push harder for Jason Bay for the same reason a lot of teams didn't: concerns about his shoulder and a pretty substantial $$ for a guy who strikes out at the rate of almost once a game (896 Ks in 922 games).
yes provided C.Lee has a normal C.Lee type year he'll reach Type A FA status and would net the M's the signing team's 1st round pick (provided it's not in the Top 15 picks...those are protected) and they'd also get a Supplemental Round Pick after the first round if Lee receives Type A status...if he has an injury plagued or severely down year and reaches Type B status, he'd only net a Supplemental pick...or if say the Orioles sign C.Lee next off-season and they have a 1st round pick that's higher than 15 then the M's would get 2 Supplemental round picks. Even if Lee leaves after this season it's still a great trade for the M's because they didn't give up a ton to get him. Aumont and Ramirez can be easily replaced by the draft picks they receive next year. They'll just be younger.
I think the Mariners didn't push harder for Jason Bay for the same reason a lot of teams didn't: concerns about his shoulder and a pretty substantial $$ for a guy who strikes out at the rate of almost once a game (896 Ks in 922 games).
that's true as well as his awful defense which doesn't fit the M's mold since they place great importance on D. That said, they could have decided not to bring back Griffey and slotted Bay at DH with Bradley playing LF. Rumors are Bay would've taken a discount to play in Seattle but again, the point was that the M's don't have that type of money because if they did, they could have also made a run at Holliday who isn't a defensive liability or an injury risk. The Lee trade was great for Seattle but again I think they'll try to keep Felix over Lee...which I certainly would.
List of 12
there are 12 players who were in the report, but guys like Vina and others were long gone before their ties to steroids. Of those that can be said to have played for the M's while definitely on the juice I see
M's
A-rod (quite possibly)
Jose Guillen
Ryan Franklin
Ron Villone
Segui
Yanks
A-Rod
Giambi
Sheffield
Clemens
Pettitte
K.Brown
David Justice
Canseco
Knoblauch
Stanton
Grimsley
Villone
Velarde
Leyritz
Rondell White
G.Hill
Suzyn Waldman*
John Sterling*
*because no one can be that bad at their job unless they're on something...
and those are just the guys who were caught...though I'm pretty certain David Wells was clean...of the gas anyway...
<< <i>K.Brown
David Justice
Canseco
Knoblauch
Stanton
Grimsley
Villone
Velarde
Leyritz
Rondell White
G.Hill >>
All these guys sucked. So, it's a tie 5 to 5 with Arod being on both lists.
Those guys, some of whom were key members of the 98-00 Championships sucked, but
Jose Guillen
Ryan Franklin
Ron Villone
Segui
were stars?
Justice .285/20/80 (2000)
G.Hill - .333/.378/.735 (2000)
Knoblauch - NYY Stats
You might need to break out a TI 83.
Mariner fans who use ignorant and hateful biased arguements born from stupidity
1. Axtell
2. All reincarnations of Axtell
3. Dave99B
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Sort of makes the Yanks latest championship a bit 'hollow'. Is that what causes the name calling/anger?
Dave
Yup, the M's are making good moves.
BTW: Cubby=Cub Fan
<< <i>softparade, I would let it go. The world is full of bitter losers who hate on the Yanks to satisfy their unfulfilled lives. We all know this and Dave99B is an all too obvious example.
The Yankees have 27 Titles now. They are the current reigning champs. I get a huge grin on my face every time I think of that fact. Furthermore, it will make watching the 2010 season SO MUCH more enjoyable. >>
meh, its all fun for me. I realize that the louder the frothing at the mouth anti Yankee banter gets, means good times for the Yanks
This clown Dave99B is so much like Axtell it kinda makes you wonder
I'm getting out so some real M's talk can flourish.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
I wonder what that means? Hmmmmmm
Dave
<< <i>‘Facts’ are so troublesome. When presented with them, name calling seems to follow shortly thereafter.
I wonder what that means? Hmmmmmm
Dave >>
if the foo $hits!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
P.S. Geez, denial is really powerful stuff!
Go M's!
<< <i>Naw, this thread has turned into the Official N.Y. Roid thread.
P.S. Geez, denial is really powerful stuff!
Go M's! >>
Yet again, what has always kept this forum from being top flight, are ignorant IDIOTS like Dave.
He will cry his eyes out yet again about name calling bla bla bla fully ignoring the MORONIC statements he makes.
News flash to IDIOTS like Dave ...... name calling is MANDATORY when dim wits like yourself spew out ignorant crap.
You also fit the bill as a SCUM BAG regarding your comments about those who live in New York.
So, on this Merry and Happy New Year, I wish all well! Even ignorant uneducated scum like Dave!
and please Dave ..... don't even try and tell me you are educated. Your comments about the people of NY have spoken all about that!
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Kind of refreshing to hear about something other than the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, or the Mets. >>
Here, here!
<< <i>Why is it that everyone assumes the Mariners won't be able to sign both Lee and Hernandez? Has management given any indication that they won't exceed a specific salary level or do people just assume that they won't want to pay for both pitchers?
no but it's common sense. The Phillies dealt Lee not just because they acquired Halladay, but because in their extension talks, Lee's people were asking for Sabathia money...ie $22M a year. So when you couple that with Felix's agent asking for $100M over 5-6 years how do you expect to pay C.Lee and Felix and Ichiro all at least $18-20M+ per year and expect to fill out a roster unless they plan on spending Yankee money?..especially when the M's are still in desperate need for a run producing middle of the lineup hitter at 1B or LF. I'm guessing if the M's had that kind of money to toss around they would've been a little more active in pursuing J.Bay, considering he admitted a desire to play near his home in BC. >>
No, the reason the Phillies dealt Lee is because he wants a long term deal, and Philly doesn't do anything longer than 3 years for pitchers (which is a great model...look at how many long term pitching contracts have been absolute busts: Kevin Brown, Barry Zito, etc). It wasn't the money he wanted. They just gave Halladay a 3 year, 60 million contract, so when you say they dealt Lee because of the money that's not the case.
As far as the M's go, it's entirely likely that they could go into 2011 with neither Lee or Hernandez. If Lee walks (which is the most likely scenario) he leaves as a type-A free agent which means they get 2 first round draft picks (the draft pick of the team that signs him and a 'sandwich' pick between rounds one and two. Getting those picks alone is worth the salary he's set to earn this year. Same deal with Felix. The Lee signing was meant to improve upon last year's 85 win total (along with signing Figgins at a fantastic discount), and show Felix the M's are serious about winning. Felix has been remiss to discuss contract extensions in the past, no doubt due to the team's stuggles with Bavasi at the helm.
If the M's make a strong run at the AL west (which is a serious maybe, considering how poorly LA has fared this offseason, and with Oakland and Texas, well, being Oakland and Texas), then expect Felix to remain a mariner. If he has another year like last, expect a 5 year, $100+ million deal to keep him in Seattle.
<< <i>No, the reason the Phillies dealt Lee is because he wants a long term deal, and Philly doesn't do anything longer than 3 years for pitchers (which is a great model...look at how many long term pitching contracts have been absolute busts: Kevin Brown, Barry Zito, etc). It wasn't the money he wanted. They just gave Halladay a 3 year, 60 million contract, so when you say they dealt Lee because of the money that's not the case. >>
Not the only reason. The team has a fourth year option on Halladay.
The Phils needed to clear payroll space in order to do the deal. They have increased payroll over the years but are not the Yankees (no malice intended). 140 mill is their target for the year.
Lee may have taken three years plus an option. He wanted to stay in Philly.
They considered trading Blanton instead since he costs $7 mill this year, but needed to offer up someone who would clear payroll space and have enough value to garner numerous high value prospects in return. They were trying to partially replenish the farm system from the Lee trade last summer and those that would go in the Halladay trade. The hits taken on the farm system from the Lee and Halladay trades were of major concern.