Thoughts on fakes
hammered
Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭
I know it's been discussed before in various forums. But the Jordan thread made me wonder how PSA reacts to these scams (going back to the Craigslist fakes), and what if anything, they've discussed internally about the problem over the past few years. These scams arise almost daily and I'm wondering why PSA has not taken steps to better protect their product.
Seems to me a hologram on the front of the flip and other anti-forgery measures could significantly reduce the frequency of these fakes. It wouldn't deter a high-tech operation, but it would stop the vast majority of these amateurs (like that joker from Tijuana and most of the Craigslist fakes). Color-changing ink, watermarks, serial #s on the back of flips, I don't know what the best combination is. But the flips as they are currently made can be duplicated by any fifth grader with a laptop.
I'm aware it wouldn't solve the problem of slabs already circulating out there (although if customers were given the option of sending in their high-dollar flips to be re-slabbed with the secure flip you'd see the old ones working their way out of circulation). Nor would it solve the problem of stupid buyers who don't do their homework. But these flips are worth thousands of dollars and their owners deserve more peace of mind than they currently have. I know I've gone back and examined some of the slabs I have in my own PC.
On the graded card lookup section on PSA's website, the cert # could have an asterisk to indicate it has a new flip to alert potential buyers, and to scare potential scamsters away from that specific card.
At the very least, a move in this (or a similar) direction by PSA would demonstrate that they recognize the problem and want to protect their customers.
As a PSA customer who subs around 200 cards a month and as a buyer of PSA-graded material for the last several years, I think I have a right to be concerned.
Edited to add: I re-read the Jordan thread and Nick M raises a great point about the Chinese. Once they set their sights on graded sports collectibles, then it's game over IMO (especially given how easy it is to reproduce a PSA flip). His point should add a significant layer of concern to both PSA and collectors of high-dollar graded items.
Seems to me a hologram on the front of the flip and other anti-forgery measures could significantly reduce the frequency of these fakes. It wouldn't deter a high-tech operation, but it would stop the vast majority of these amateurs (like that joker from Tijuana and most of the Craigslist fakes). Color-changing ink, watermarks, serial #s on the back of flips, I don't know what the best combination is. But the flips as they are currently made can be duplicated by any fifth grader with a laptop.
I'm aware it wouldn't solve the problem of slabs already circulating out there (although if customers were given the option of sending in their high-dollar flips to be re-slabbed with the secure flip you'd see the old ones working their way out of circulation). Nor would it solve the problem of stupid buyers who don't do their homework. But these flips are worth thousands of dollars and their owners deserve more peace of mind than they currently have. I know I've gone back and examined some of the slabs I have in my own PC.
On the graded card lookup section on PSA's website, the cert # could have an asterisk to indicate it has a new flip to alert potential buyers, and to scare potential scamsters away from that specific card.
At the very least, a move in this (or a similar) direction by PSA would demonstrate that they recognize the problem and want to protect their customers.
As a PSA customer who subs around 200 cards a month and as a buyer of PSA-graded material for the last several years, I think I have a right to be concerned.
Edited to add: I re-read the Jordan thread and Nick M raises a great point about the Chinese. Once they set their sights on graded sports collectibles, then it's game over IMO (especially given how easy it is to reproduce a PSA flip). His point should add a significant layer of concern to both PSA and collectors of high-dollar graded items.
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Comments
<< <i>I know it's been discussed before in various forums. But the Jordan thread made me wonder how PSA reacts to these scams (going back to the Craigslist fakes), and what if anything, they've discussed internally about the problem over the past few years. These scams arise almost daily and I'm wondering why PSA has not taken steps to better protect their product.
Seems to me a hologram on the front of the flip and other anti-forgery measures could significantly reduce the frequency of these fakes. It wouldn't deter a high-tech operation, but it would stop the vast majority of these amateurs (like that joker from Tijuana and most of the Craigslist fakes). Color-changing ink, watermarks, serial #s on the back of flips, I don't know what the best combination is. But the flips as they are currently made can be duplicated by any fifth grader with a laptop.
I'm aware it wouldn't solve the problem of slabs already circulating out there (although if customers were given the option of sending in their high-dollar flips to be re-slabbed with the secure flip you'd see the old ones working their way out of circulation). Nor would it solve the problem of stupid buyers who don't do their homework. But these flips are worth thousands of dollars and their owners deserve more peace of mind than they currently have. I know I've gone back and examined some of the slabs I have in my own PC.
On the graded card lookup section on PSA's website, the cert # could have an asterisk to indicate it has a new flip to alert potential buyers, and to scare potential scamsters away from that specific card.
At the very least, a move in this (or a similar) direction by PSA would demonstrate that they recognize the problem and want to protect their customers.
As a PSA customer who subs around 200 cards a month and as a buyer of PSA-graded material for the last several years, I think I have a right to be concerned.
Edited to add: I re-read the Jordan thread and Nick M raises a great point about the Chinese. Once they set their sights on graded sports collectibles, then it's game over IMO (especially given how easy it is to reproduce a PSA flip). His point should add a significant layer of concern to both PSA and collectors of high-dollar graded items. >>
I was thinking of having BGS slab and authenticate my PSA cards into 5x7 BGS holders (with the intact PSA cases inside)
That type of scam has already been found in coins - and it traces to China. Read the Controversies section on this page. This series of pages is also very enlightening.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
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If it was economically feasible - it is NOT - it still would not solve the problem.
The ONLY solution is LEO involvement.
LEO will NOT make the cases. Private industry must make the case and deliver
it to the LEOs. That is the ONLY soluion.
booster-busters
MANY Fortune 500 corps have found that the ONLY way to
fight back against EBAY-criminals is to form their own HUGE
security operations, make the cases and deliver them neatly
wrapped to the LEOs.
<< <i>"...I'm aware it wouldn't solve the problem of slabs already circulating out there (although if customers were given the option of sending in their high-dollar flips to be re-slabbed with the secure flip you'd see the old ones working their way out of circulation)...."
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If it was economically feasible - it is NOT - it still would not solve the problem.
The ONLY solution is LEO involvement.
LEO will NOT make the cases. Private industry must make the case and deliver
it to the LEOs. That is the ONLY soluion.
booster-busters
MANY Fortune 500 corps have found that the ONLY way to
fight back against EBAY-criminals is to form their own HUGE
security operations, make the cases and deliver them neatly
wrapped to the LEOs. >>
Exactly. This will never change until a large LEO is set up just to combat this crime. Outside of that happening, a LEO has to fight crime he can see...rather then hunt for crime he can not.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>ndleo - making large quantities of replica PSA slabs requires essentially a small factory with some expensive machinery, and when that's being used to perpetrate a fraud ring, you also need to know that law enforcement will not just show up someday with a warrant.
That type of scam has already been found in coins - and it traces to China. Read the Controversies section on this page. This series of pages is also very enlightening.
Nick >>
Nick - I agree. My point is that we do not need the Chinese for this scam to have a significant impact on the hobby. I am already paranoid of high dollar PSA card auctions that feature a scan against a white background. I just got a $600 card and the case looked like it could have a compromised seal (slight cracking on the right side), I contacted the seller to return the card.
PSA can hide behind the "we didn't slab the card so it isn't our issue" skirt, but it seems like PSA is the main target for these crooks.
Changing slabs at this point wouldn't accomplish much, if anything at all.
Remember that compromised (cracked and resealed) slabs and fake slabs are two different scams. Fake slabs take a lot more effort to produce and require a much larger operation, but there will be no signs of tampering on them.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
"...I think PSA can do more...."
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I wish it was so; but, it is not.
There is NOTHING that PSA can do, other than encourage
the LEOs to take action against the criminals.
If there are 10,000,000+/- slabs out there, changing the slabs
now will have ZERO impact on the problem.
<< <i>"...I think PSA can do more...."
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I wish it was so; but, it is not.
There is NOTHING that PSA can do, other than encourage
the LEOs to take action against the criminals.
If there are 10,000,000+/- slabs out there, changing the slabs
now will have ZERO impact on the problem. >>
It wouldn't protect the future submissions better? It wouldn't protect the cards that are re-slabbed better? I have to be honest with you, you are a smart person, but you simply sound like a PSA lackey with your "there is absolutely NOTHING they can do" diatribes. Of course there are things they can do, and better slabs is one of them. It's NOT out of the question and it CAN be done and done right. I'm not saying it would be an easy process, but a worthwhile one none-the-less.
<< <i>It wouldn't protect the future submissions better? It wouldn't protect the cards that are re-slabbed better? I have to be honest with you, you are a smart person, but you simply sound like a PSA lackey with your "there is absolutely NOTHING they can do" diatribes. Of course there are things they can do, and better slabs is one of them. It's NOT out of the question and it CAN be done and done right. I'm not saying it would be an easy process, but a worthwhile one none-the-less. >>
PSA could come out with a new slab, watermarked flips, and possibly have a serial number raised on the slab itself.
All that would be great and I'm sure everyone would welcome it.
It could prevent people from switching the cards inside and almost certainly prevent fake slabs.
But even if PSA does that, the problem is that the scammers will just keep putting the fakes in old slabs, or a counterfeit old slab.
<< <i>
<< <i>It wouldn't protect the future submissions better? It wouldn't protect the cards that are re-slabbed better? I have to be honest with you, you are a smart person, but you simply sound like a PSA lackey with your "there is absolutely NOTHING they can do" diatribes. Of course there are things they can do, and better slabs is one of them. It's NOT out of the question and it CAN be done and done right. I'm not saying it would be an easy process, but a worthwhile one none-the-less. >>
PSA could come out with a new slab, watermarked flips, and possibly have a serial number raised on the slab itself.
All that would be great and I'm sure everyone would welcome it.
It could prevent people from switching the cards inside and almost certainly prevent fake slabs.
But even if PSA does that, the problem is that the scammers will just keep putting the fakes in old slabs, or a counterfeit old slab. >>
But the new submissions would be safer and re-slabbed cards would be safer. It wouldn't get rid of the problem, but it would be a big help. I know I would have all my high-dollar PSA cards re-slabbed into a newer and better slab. It would be worth it for ease-of-mind alone.
<< <i>
<< <i>It wouldn't protect the future submissions better? It wouldn't protect the cards that are re-slabbed better? I have to be honest with you, you are a smart person, but you simply sound like a PSA lackey with your "there is absolutely NOTHING they can do" diatribes. Of course there are things they can do, and better slabs is one of them. It's NOT out of the question and it CAN be done and done right. I'm not saying it would be an easy process, but a worthwhile one none-the-less. >>
PSA could come out with a new slab, watermarked flips, and possibly have a serial number raised on the slab itself.
All that would be great and I'm sure everyone would welcome it.
It could prevent people from switching the cards inside and almost certainly prevent fake slabs.
But even if PSA does that, the problem is that the scammers will just keep putting the fakes in old slabs, or a counterfeit old slab. >>
Plus all of this would cost us. So, I agree....it makes no sense to change. It does not matter how you change the case, I can still buy a PSA 9 for $1-2.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
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And, almost NONE of the old slabs would EVER be reslabbed.
IF the number of cards being slabbed remained about constant
it could take 20-years+ to see 50% of the slabbed-population
in new slabs. At the END of that time, the other 50% would remain
available for use by criminals.
Security-weak slabs don't cheat people, criminals cheat people.
Prosecute a few of the criminals, and the problem will fade.
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VeRO is still a viable option to TOTALLY kill the supply of fakes on EBAY, but
it appears that PSA has chosen not to use that system.
<< <i>When PSA subs start going down in number, they MAY start new slabs. IMO, PSA could make quite a bit, by just reslabbing old cards to new slabs, ones that are as tough as if not tougher than Becketts >>
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FEW folks are worried about the issue. The folks who read
this and other boards know how to buy safely. I doubt that
submission counts are going to be affected by the issue.
My WAG is that almost nobody would resub their slabs to
get a "more secure" slab. Some high-val cards might be
sent in for the change, but the cheaper ones would not.
Any new slab does not need to be "tougher." It needs to
be more fragile, and shatter beyond repair if tampered.
<< <i>Some high-val cards might be
sent in for the change, but the cheaper ones would not. >>
I'd expect this to be true, and I wouldn't expect the better/pricier flips/slab service to be available on lower $ cards, anyway. It wouldn't make sense to switch out the majority of those 10,000,000+ slabs currently out there. They're fine the way they are. Crooks can't profit from counterfeiting $8 slabs, anyway. But it would make sense to me to provide added security going forward on higher valued cards, and perhaps the newer service should only be available (and mandatory, even) on higher declared values.
If someone is holding a real '54 Mantle PSA 7 and they want to protect the integrity of their investment, or keep it from being copied (maybe even several times over), then it would be nice if they had the option of sending it back and making it more secure.
I don't own Mantles, but I do own high grade cards (like a PSA 9 Brett rc for instance) in my PC. If I had the option of paying $5 to have that $600 card better protected, I'd do it tomorrow.
<< <i>Wouldn't PSA be conceding its old cases were an inferior product and thus open up the possibilty of lawsuits against them? I don't see the logic from PSAs point of view to offer this service, and if they did, it would also be hard for them to justify charge for it since they would have admitted being responsbile in the first place for this problem. >>
PSA is no more responsible for fake flips than the federal government is responsible for counterfeit money.
The only thing they'd be "conceding" is that their product needs improvement, and I doubt that anyone seriously believes their flip or slab cannot be improved.
A company that recognizes there is a loophole allowing criminal activity should close that loophole. What's illogical about that?