Mercury Dimes Full Bands vs Full split bands

steamer

First of all i would like to say I hope everyone had a very nice Christmas

Now for a dumb question I have been thinking about doing a mercury dime collection but i am not sure when it is said to be Full Bands does that mean that all three bands can be seen clearly and is this the same as FSB .

Full Split Bands do all three bands have to be split or just the top and bottom bands.

Any help would be great.

WTCG

"Full bands" and "full split bands" mean the same thing.

On the reverse if the there is a pronounced split between the two horizontal parallel bands (the middle pair) at the center of the coin then the dime will achieve the designation.

Fairlaneman

Below is a full split band merc. As mentioned above only the middle band has to show the full split. The top and botom bands have nothing to do with the designation.

steamer

Thank you for the pic that helps alot

steamer

Thank you for your help

rld14

FB and FSB are kinda like DPL and DMPL on Morgans, they mean the same thing, but TPGs sometimes use one or the other on holders.

If you want a set with fully split bands, you might wanna start saving for the 45-P now... VERY scarce coin with FSBs

fcloud

Here is one where the center bands are fully rounded. Eventhough, the split is the only thing considered there are variation of just split though fully rounded and split. When grading they just look at the split.



This coin makes full bands, but you can see it just flatter.



And, go figure this one for some reason isn't full bands.



this one misses full bands and you can see the partial band.

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Edscoin

<< <i>I was under the impression of the 3 sets of bands all must be split and not just the middle set like Fairlaneman said, can someone please elaborate. >>


Thats what I thought too!

fcloud

I believe pcgs only looks at the center band, while ngc looks at all three. I'm not positive, but I believe Ken is correct.

mumu

<< <i>I was under the impression of the 3 sets of bands all must be split and not just the middle set like Fairlaneman said, can someone please elaborate. >>



I thought so too and that would make a lot more sense. I used to think that the vertical splits in the column had to be there too.

PonyExpress8

The high point of the reverse design is the center bands. This is where the metal flow is likely not to fully take place if the strike is weaker. The upper and lower bands nearly always show separation. The center bands are the only area that needs to be viewed for a FB designation. Hopefully this clarifies!

Nice photos fcloud showing the degrees of separation and roundness.

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PonyExpress8

Hmmm.

Let me try again.

The upper and lower bands are nearly always split on the tens of thousands of BU Mercury Dimes I have viewed in my life. The upper and lower bands will be split if the center one is since the center horizontal bands are the high point of the design. Therefore, if the center bands are split as that being the high point of the design the upper and lower ones will be as well because of the metal flow of this design.

fcloud

Try this link...
pcgs info on fully split full bands with photos

The PCGS info without the photos.

Mercury Dimes with Full Bands

Jaime Hernandez - May 11, 2009

PCGS graders have recognized the scarcity of many Mercury dimes that display full band details on the reverse of the coin. Hence, Mercury dimes displaying full central band details on the reverse will receive the Full Band designation by PCGS.

Some Mercury dimes such as the 1918-D are extremely scarce with the full band details. In fact, a 1918-D Mercury dime graded PCGS MS66 will usually bring a bit over $1,000 in the market. The same coin graded by PCGS MS66 but with the Full Band designation will bring in excess of $100,000 in the market!

Coins with full split band details usually indicate that the coins were struck from a fresh and well-defined pair of coin dies and under the correct pressure. Mercury dimes which lack full split band details usually indicate that the coin dies striking the reverse of the coin had worn out on the central band details. Since one of the highest portions of the coin's reverse design is the central bands, this area has the tendency to wear out the quickest.

Consequently, Mercury dimes with full split band details are extremely coveted by astute collectors. These collectors wish to own examples of the best-defined and best-struck Mercury dimes in existence.


To PCGS graders, a Mercury dime with full band details will have fully separated horizontal bands on the central part of the fasces (the bundle of rods on the reverse). In addition, there can be no interruption on the trough (depression) of the bands due to strike, contact, planchet problems or any other damage, whether mint caused or not, if the coin is to obtain the PCGS Full Band designation.

Although the central bands must be fully separated with no interruption, it is not necessary to have full roundness to the bands – the so-called “McDonald's Arches” that are sometimes referred to as Full Split or Full Rounded Bands.

Above is an image of a 1941-D Mercury dime with interrupted and very weak details on the splitting of the central bands. This coin would not receive the Full Bands designation by PCGS.

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Fairlaneman

Realone you are right, it makes no sense. This designation goes by one thing on the coin, the middle band. The obverse can be weak as hell but if that middle band is split the coin will be called FB thus making it a fully struck coin.

Garbage in my book but that is how it is done.

Nice 19S Tony.....

Ken

fcloud

<< <i>Realone you are right, it makes no sense. This designation goes by one thing on the coin, the middle band. The obverse can be weak as hell but if that middle band is split the coin will be called FB thus making it a fully struck coin.

Garbage in my book but that is how it is done.

Nice 19S Tony.....

Ken >>



I knew you would like that one! LOL

coinguy1

<< <i>I was under the impression of the 3 sets of bands all must be split and not just the middle set like Fairlaneman said, can someone please elaborate. >>

Alan, I promise you that you were under the wrong impression. Only the center set of bands is considered for the "FB" . Do you need me to elaborate further? Just in case you do - only the center set of bands is considered for the "FB"

Edited to add: That goes for PCGS, as well as NGC and any other grading company that I know of.

And, the focus on that one small section of the coin, at the exclusion of larger areas is similar to that which occurs with "FH" Standing Liberty Quarters and "FBL" Franklin Half dollars. I generally prefer coins without the designations for a lot less money, which might also be even better struck on other areas of the design.

PonyExpress8

I can only go by experience. But if the middle horizontal bands are split, this being the HIGHEST point of the reverse design, then the upper and lower bands will also be split. Unless there is a grease strike through or something of that nature on a part of the coin the upper and lower bands will be split if the center ones are because of metal flow characteristics of this design.

fcloud

The center bands can be fully split with and impact mark and not graded full bands because of it. On the ohter hand if there is an impact mark on the upper and/or lower bands the coin can still grade full bands.

Fairlaneman

"I generally prefer coins without the designations for a lot less money, which might also be even better struck on other areas of the design."

The 19S that Tony has is a great example of this statement. A little more split and that coin would be worth a ton.

Ken

mumu

<< <i>I can only go by experience. But if the middle horizontal bands are split, this being the HIGHEST point of the reverse design, then the upper and lower bands will also be split. Unless there is a grease strike through or something of that nature on a part of the coin the upper and lower bands will be split if the center ones are because of metal flow characteristics of this design. >>



I understand what you think you are saying. If the center bands are split, because they are the highest point, there is no way the other bands wont be split, mutually inclusive et cetera. In a vaccuum maybe this is true. But in reality I dont think it is. Not just for the bands but many other details as well. A die may be retocuhed in one area and not another after weakening, poor pressure strike et cetera. I have seen mercs with splits in the center and then the vertical lines below them porrly defined. If it can happen to areases lower than the upper and lower bands then it can happen to them as well.

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PonyExpress8

There are always exceptions to a "rule" but if it applies in the high 90's percent of the time then it's usually a pretty good one.

There is a lot made of strike which is an important aspect of a coin grade. The FB designation on Winged Liberty Head dimes is actually more accurate an indicator of strike then most of the other coins with such designations in my experience. I have seen "FH" Standing Liberty Quarters with shield rivets incomplete, "FBL" halves with strike weakness elsewhere. The dimes are nearly always consistent.

Go take a look at a few hundred BU dimes "FB" and not and see if it plays out for you.

I can say for the tens of thousands of dimes I have viewed in my lifetime it has for me with a miniscule handful of exceptions.

But always buy the coin and not the holder and view the entire coin.

The center bands can be fully split with and impact mark and not graded full bands because of it. On the ohter hand if there is an impact mark on the upper and/or lower bands the coin can still grade full bands.

Here is a good example of that fcloud.

FUN Auction Coin

Fairlaneman

"even if the tpg's distort it or maybe collectors have allowed the tpg's to get away with it."

Realone it is not the TPG's that came up with the designation. I believe it was a collector by the name of Kritzman that coined the term. His collection of fully struck Mercs sold a few years ago at auction. From what I have seen the TPG's do a pretty nice job of sticking to the rules that were coined by a collector.

Hey if I got the collector wrong someone correct me. I am going from memory on this one......

Ken

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Bochiman

I hope the center bands on this one are better in person than in the picture....


Dime 1940S PCGS 65 FB

roadrunner

If I were a newbie FB Merc collector just starting out you bet I would buy only FB specimens where the center bands were deeply split and fully rounded (ie the McD Arches). That's the way Harold Kritzman of Old Towne Coin defined them decades ago. The standards in effect today have slipped considerably over the years. A lot of what I see for FB might only be 90-95% split where the coin has to be tilted in just the right light to see a minute scratch of a center separation.

It really comes down to having a near fully struck coin with no hits on the center and diagonal bands. If the center of the obverse is not well struck as well it matters little to me if the band is mostly split. And if some dates just don't come with those desired McArches then those holes would remain empty until one finally did show up.

These days if you want to stand out from the next guy you have to take it to another level. And this case it means going back a few decades. Just because everyone else has FB sets where the splits are very shallow doesn't mean you have to accept that as your standard. The same concept can be applied to FH, FBL, FT, Full Steps...and even a series like Walkers where no set standard yet exists (full hand, full skirt, full eagle). If you run with the pack you get packman results.

Of the several pics fcloud posted only the first one looks to be an all-there FSB. The rest all require tilting and squinting to see the split. If you look long enough you will find some tpg FB designated coins where flat spots exist in the horiz bands.

roadrunner

yellowkid

. Only the center set of bands is considered for the "FB" . Do you need me to elaborate further? Just in case you do - only the center set of bands is considered for the "FB"

ksteelheader

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I can only go by experience. But if the middle horizontal bands are split, this being the HIGHEST point of the reverse design, then the upper and lower bands will also be split. Unless there is a grease strike through or something of that nature on a part of the coin the upper and lower bands will be split if the center ones are because of metal flow characteristics of this design. >>



I understand what you think you are saying. If the center bands are split, because they are the highest point, there is no way the other bands wont be split, mutually inclusive et cetera. In a vaccuum maybe this is true. But in reality I dont think it is. Not just for the bands but many other details as well. A die may be retocuhed in one area and not another after weakening, poor pressure strike et cetera. I have seen mercs with splits in the center and then the vertical lines below them porrly defined. If it can happen to areases lower than the upper and lower bands then it can happen to them as well. >>




Now this is an explanationt hat I can RELATE to, and makes sense even if the tpg's distort it or maybe collectors have allowed the tpg's to get away with it. >>



It's all about $$$$$$$ and Registry.

oreville

<< <i>Now this is an explanationt hat I can RELATE to, and makes sense even if the tpg's distort it or maybe collectors have allowed the tpg's to get away with it. >> >>



I am not so sure about that. It is rare that the upper and lower bands are not FB when the center bands are FB that no one really cared (including me) once you achieved the FB in the center bands. It was all about focusing on a single area of the coin and not multiple areas of the coins. It was more about obsessing about a single area of the coin.

Same thing with FBL in franklins. Not all areas of the reverse had to be fully struck up to be FBL.

Etc etc.