The destruction of the Jackson autograph is shameful (if it was a real auto to begin with) IMO cutting up an important, vintage game-used jersey (ie one of Cobb, Gehrig, Robinson) to put in a trading card is no different.
Did anyone catch this in the article about the parent site? I wasn't aware of this (the part about no warranty on the authentication).
Collectors Universe is the parent company of PSA/DNA. The following is a quote from Collectors Universe 2009 Annual Report.
"Additionally, we warrant our certification of authenticity and the grade we assign to coins, trading cards and stamps bearing our brands. We do not warrant our authenticity determinations for autographs and memorabilia."
For areas of collecting they think they know something about, they offer a warranty. Collectors Universe continues in their annual report:…".we issue an authenticity or grading warranty with every coin and trading card authenticated or graded by us…if a coin or trading card that has been authenticated by us is later determined not to have been authentic, we are obliged under our warranty to purchase the coin or trading card at the price that the then owner paid for that collectible." "…in the second quarter, and in the third quarter of fiscal 2008, we incurred warranty claims that were significant in relation to our historical claims experience and, as a result, we recognized the second quarter of 2008, an additional expense of $822,000 for those claims…"
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to imagine $822,000 is chump change compared to what would have to be spent on autograph authenticating mistakes. They are well aware of this and maybe that’s just why there’s no warranty on their autograph authentications.
Q: Do you guarantee that the autographs you certify are genuine and those you do not are fake?
A: No. We do not guarantee autographs under the Vintage Certified program. By using this program, you are paying for the opinion of the top experts in the world, using state-of-the-art examination tools and techniques.
............
I am not at all sure as to what kind of scheme could possibly be used to offer a "guarantee."
The fact that the people at TOPPS are stupid enough to RUIN a perfectly good signature, only confirms that consumers are stupid enough to buy such JUNK.
The sigs/relics belong to TOPPS. If they choose to destroy them, it is their right to do so. If consumers stop buying the GARBAGE, TOPPS will stop making it.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Fun little on-line war going on in the autograph world.
Regards Rich
Plano, Tx. Card Show #5, Sunday March 6, 2016 at Adat Chaverim (Northeast Corner Independence and Spring Creek) in Plano Tx 9Am to 4 PM. See you there!
<< <i>Did anyone catch this in the article about the parent site? I wasn't aware of this (the part about no warranty on the authentication).
Collectors Universe is the parent company of PSA/DNA. The following is a quote from Collectors Universe 2009 Annual Report.
"Additionally, we warrant our certification of authenticity and the grade we assign to coins, trading cards and stamps bearing our brands. We do not warrant our authenticity determinations for autographs and memorabilia."
For areas of collecting they think they know something about, they offer a warranty. Collectors Universe continues in their annual report:…".we issue an authenticity or grading warranty with every coin and trading card authenticated or graded by us…if a coin or trading card that has been authenticated by us is later determined not to have been authentic, we are obliged under our warranty to purchase the coin or trading card at the price that the then owner paid for that collectible." "…in the second quarter, and in the third quarter of fiscal 2008, we incurred warranty claims that were significant in relation to our historical claims experience and, as a result, we recognized the second quarter of 2008, an additional expense of $822,000 for those claims…"
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to imagine $822,000 is chump change compared to what would have to be spent on autograph authenticating mistakes. They are well aware of this and maybe that’s just why there’s no warranty on their autograph authentications. >>
It is my understanding that most of the $822,000, like 80%+, was paid out on the coin side.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Andrew Jackson autos I don't imagine are that rare, so I don't see a problem with the card. Same thing with almost all the GU items used on cards. 99%+ are easy to find current players, the other 1% is no problem, because the sport fields create enough stuff to fill a museum every season....and frankly.....there is not the interest for a HOF in every city.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
I'm ROFL at Chrstopher Morales's EPIC FAIL on authenticating Jim Morrison's autograph. I don't know much about music signatures, but I can tell by looking at his supposed exemplars that one of them makes his o's clockwise and another makes them counterclockwise, meaning that they were not done by the same person, and at least one, if not both, is a clear fake.
The battling between Epperson and Koschal leaves me thinking poorly of both men.
While it is a nice expose on the issue with authenticators. The writing style on that site is atrocious. He belabors points over and over and it does seem to be a giant peeing match between these two groups. The writing also smacks of bias. There seems to be so much evidence of incompetence that snide remarks are not necessary.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
Personally, I collect a lot of autos but I am not really worried. I mostly just collect well certified common heisman/hofers and out of pack autos. Of course then you still have to be careful, but the odds of say a Bob Feller PSA DNA Swell being fake is pretty out there. Not impossible, but not very likely. If the autograph was above my knowledge I would research/consult others.
At the end of the day, I think you can trust JSA and PSA/DNA 10x over the average eBay auction, and I will continue to buy autos certified by them.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
On the topic of 3rd party authenticators, I think it's important to not put too much faith in them. Don't make a decision solely because they say it's authentic. They do make mistakes as all of us have seen so it is very important to do your own research. It is sad but a lot of collectors don't understand that, epically in the ebay world.
<< <i>On the topic of 3rd party authenticators, I think it's important to not put too much faith in them. Don't make a decision solely because they say it's authentic. They do make mistakes as all of us have seen so it is very important to do your own research. It is sad but a lot of collectors don't understand that, epically in the ebay world. >>
Yep, just remember the posts above by metrotheme and storm888...PSA does NOT guarantee the authenticity of the autographs they review and "determine" are authentic.
I've seen a few PSA/DNA authenticated autographs that are clear forgeries or autopens...especially astronauts.
JSA has also had a few publicized incidents where autographs they authenticated were later proven to be forgeries.
The bottom line is that we collectors must be knowledgeable in our own right when it comes to the items we collect. We should not place blind trust in any third party authenticator.
I don't want this to sound like I'm bashing the authenticators. I'm not. We and they are all human, and as such, we and they make mistakes. They do however, provide a service we all need, and all-in-all, they do a decent job at it. It is simply that no third party authenticator should be viewed as the "end-all-be-all" of authentication. Third party authentication is mearly a starting point. We collectors must consider all aspects of an item, including our own accumulated knowledge (from all sources), when considering the purchase of an item.
I think for highly forged items you really have to do your own homework. I would personally not buy a Babe Ruth or Clemente auto authenticated by BGS, PSA or JSA on their opinion alone. It would have to have a strong provenance and prior ownership history.
It seems there are "fresh" examples of Clemente signed topps cards popping up all the time when in the last 20 years I hadn't seen but a handful for sale. Alot of signed photos, postcards and scorecards but actual Topps cards are rare.
There is alot of information out there so making an informed opinion is actually easier than people think.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
I completely agree that you have to be careful even with 3rd party graders/authenticators. Not sure if I made that clear.
I can note I have never seen a fake Steve Young PSA DNA or JSA auto and I am not sure if I have ever seen an authentic GIA Steve Young auto. But I can say that, because of years of looking at Young's signature. So, in Yong's case, I would trust my opinion, over PSA DNA or JSA.
There are several list members here I would trust in their specialty over a professional who may certify your Ronald Reagan and your Peyton Manning.
So research, research...and ask questions from those that have more knowledge then you on the exact subject.
We are lucky in the sense that we have so many people with different focuses. Like, if I had a president auto I wanted an opinion on, Mike would be my first person to ask. Then I might put it on ebay for $250,000 (assuming it is not mine and something I really wanted) and do a quick PSA DNA. Of course, since I first contacted Mike, he might take it to the people he trust and get their opinion as well.
I would need a lot of convincing on a JFK auto. But like my example above, Bob Feller....not so much so. His signature is very consistent and common.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Comments
Rodney
<< <i>Wow...and this Epperson fellow in the other articles sounds like a real hoot to deal with as well...
Rodney >>
Yea, they do.
SCAregalia.com - Masonic Regalia & Supply
IMO cutting up an important, vintage game-used jersey (ie one of Cobb, Gehrig, Robinson) to put in a trading card is no different.
Collectors Universe is the parent company of PSA/DNA. The following is a quote from Collectors Universe 2009 Annual Report.
"Additionally, we warrant our certification of authenticity and the grade we assign to coins, trading cards and stamps bearing our brands. We do not warrant our authenticity determinations for autographs and memorabilia."
For areas of collecting they think they know something about, they offer a warranty. Collectors Universe continues in their annual report:…".we issue an authenticity or grading warranty with every coin and trading card authenticated or graded by us…if a coin or trading card that has been authenticated by us is later determined not to have been authentic, we are obliged under our warranty to purchase the coin or trading card at the price that the then owner paid for that collectible." "…in the second quarter, and in the third quarter of fiscal 2008, we incurred warranty claims that were significant in relation to our historical claims experience and, as a result, we recognized the second quarter of 2008, an additional expense of $822,000 for those claims…"
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to imagine $822,000 is chump change compared to what would have to be spent on autograph authenticating mistakes. They are well aware of this and maybe that’s just why there’s no warranty on their autograph authentications.
Q: Do you guarantee that the autographs you certify are genuine and those you do not are fake?
A: No. We do not guarantee autographs under the Vintage Certified program. By using this program, you are paying for the opinion of the top experts in the world, using state-of-the-art examination tools and techniques.
............
I am not at all sure as to what kind of scheme could possibly
be used to offer a "guarantee."
................................
.....................................
.........................................
The fact that the people at TOPPS are stupid enough to RUIN a perfectly
good signature, only confirms that consumers are stupid enough to buy
such JUNK.
The sigs/relics belong to TOPPS. If they choose to destroy them, it is their
right to do so. If consumers stop buying the GARBAGE, TOPPS will stop
making it.
I have no opinions and no vested interest in any of this; but to be fair; here is the opposing web site
http://autographalerttruth.com/enter.html
Fun little on-line war going on in the autograph world.
Regards
Rich
dynamic
RIP GURU
One thing is certain.
A copy of a re-released album with a dead guy's sig is surely a forgery.
<< <i>Did anyone catch this in the article about the parent site? I wasn't aware of this (the part about no warranty on the authentication).
Collectors Universe is the parent company of PSA/DNA. The following is a quote from Collectors Universe 2009 Annual Report.
"Additionally, we warrant our certification of authenticity and the grade we assign to coins, trading cards and stamps bearing our brands. We do not warrant our authenticity determinations for autographs and memorabilia."
For areas of collecting they think they know something about, they offer a warranty. Collectors Universe continues in their annual report:…".we issue an authenticity or grading warranty with every coin and trading card authenticated or graded by us…if a coin or trading card that has been authenticated by us is later determined not to have been authentic, we are obliged under our warranty to purchase the coin or trading card at the price that the then owner paid for that collectible." "…in the second quarter, and in the third quarter of fiscal 2008, we incurred warranty claims that were significant in relation to our historical claims experience and, as a result, we recognized the second quarter of 2008, an additional expense of $822,000 for those claims…"
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to imagine $822,000 is chump change compared to what would have to be spent on autograph authenticating mistakes. They are well aware of this and maybe that’s just why there’s no warranty on their autograph authentications. >>
It is my understanding that most of the $822,000, like 80%+, was paid out on the coin side.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
The battling between Epperson and Koschal leaves me thinking poorly of both men.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
Started to make a list of some but there are so many of them. Here are a few....
Never heard of Koschal vs Epperson before the above link.
Here I guess is a press releaseby Koschal on Epperson. Kinda conflicting PSA/JSA comment, but I don'tknow.
http://www.free-press-release.com/news-roger-epperson-autograph-authentication-joke-1258778284.html
Another Koschal on Epperson....with a different PSA/JSA comment. Maybe Koschal doesn't understand JSA use to work for PSA?
http://www.ripoffreport.com/hobby-shops/roger-epperson/roger-epperson-signed-sealed-f38cc.htm
Same as above, but supposively a different submitter.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/music-shops/roger-epperson/roger-epperson-signed-sealed-a-ae426.htm
There is a comment from Epperson on Koschal here....about 4/5th down...
http://autographalerttruth.com/letters_to_the_editor.html
Some Epperson comments here....being attacked by Raiderman, who is also in one of the aboive links, which backs Epperson's comment on Raiderman.
http://live.autographmagazine.com/group/music
The Net54 related thread is the best and longest. If you have not read this, wait until you have several hours...it is long and very interesting.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1201896466/last-1202573634/Open+letter+to+STAT+and+Christopher+Morales
Personally, I collect a lot of autos but I am not really worried. I mostly just collect well certified common heisman/hofers and out of pack autos. Of course then you still have to be careful, but the odds of say a Bob Feller PSA DNA Swell being fake is pretty out there. Not impossible, but not very likely. If the autograph was above my knowledge I would research/consult others.
At the end of the day, I think you can trust JSA and PSA/DNA 10x over the average eBay auction, and I will continue to buy autos certified by them.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
SCAregalia.com - Masonic Regalia & Supply
<< <i>On the topic of 3rd party authenticators, I think it's important to not put too much faith in them. Don't make a decision solely because they say it's authentic. They do make mistakes as all of us have seen so it is very important to do your own research. It is sad but a lot of collectors don't understand that, epically in the ebay world. >>
Yep, just remember the posts above by metrotheme and storm888...PSA does NOT guarantee the authenticity of the autographs they review and "determine" are authentic.
I've seen a few PSA/DNA authenticated autographs that are clear forgeries or autopens...especially astronauts.
JSA has also had a few publicized incidents where autographs they authenticated were later proven to be forgeries.
The bottom line is that we collectors must be knowledgeable in our own right when it comes to the items we collect. We should not place blind trust in any third party authenticator.
I don't want this to sound like I'm bashing the authenticators. I'm not. We and they are all human, and as such, we and they make mistakes. They do however, provide a service we all need, and all-in-all, they do a decent job at it. It is simply that no third party authenticator should be viewed as the "end-all-be-all" of authentication. Third party authentication is mearly a starting point. We collectors must consider all aspects of an item, including our own accumulated knowledge (from all sources), when considering the purchase of an item.
Steve
It seems there are "fresh" examples of Clemente signed topps cards popping up all the time when in the last 20 years I hadn't seen but a handful for sale. Alot of signed photos, postcards and scorecards but actual Topps cards are rare.
There is alot of information out there so making an informed opinion is actually easier than people think.
I can note I have never seen a fake Steve Young PSA DNA or JSA auto and I am not sure if I have ever seen an authentic GIA Steve Young auto. But I can say that, because of years of looking at Young's signature. So, in Yong's case, I would trust my opinion, over PSA DNA or JSA.
There are several list members here I would trust in their specialty over a professional who may certify your Ronald Reagan and your Peyton Manning.
So research, research...and ask questions from those that have more knowledge then you on the exact subject.
We are lucky in the sense that we have so many people with different focuses. Like, if I had a president auto I wanted an opinion on, Mike would be my first person to ask. Then I might put it on ebay for $250,000 (assuming it is not mine and something I really wanted) and do a quick PSA DNA. Of course, since I first contacted Mike, he might take it to the people he trust and get their opinion as well.
I would need a lot of convincing on a JFK auto. But like my example above, Bob Feller....not so much so. His signature is very consistent and common.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.