1909 VDB MPL IN AUCTION AT FUN

Steve · December 22, 2009 9:33AM

I guess it's time to start a topic about the next 1909 VDB MPL coming up for auction. This is a PCGS PR65RD example which has a price guide value of $60,000. It will be the first example of this variety to come to auction since the change in PCGS's guarantee policy regarding copper coins. There are now 11 bidders who have bid the coin to $34,500 with the "juice". The coin will come to auction on Thursday evening, January 7th. Here is a link to the Heritage auction lot.
Steve

SanctionII · December 22, 2009 10:05AM

Interesting.

I like the coin and expect it looks better in hand than it does in the Heritage pictures.

However, I wonder if the coin would be graded PR65RD if it was a 1958 uncirculated business strike instead of a Matte Proof. There seems to be a significant portion of the surface area of the coin that is not even close to what one would consider Red (orange actually).

WaterSport · December 22, 2009 11:36PM

Another question is whether or not it ends up in a registry set here after it’s bought. The coin was been offered at $82,000 before it ended up at auction.

WS

Steve · December 23, 2009 4:02AM

<< Another question is whether or not it ends up in a registry set here after it’s bought. The coin was been offered at $82,000 before it ended up at auction.

WS >>

Bob and others,
I've always contended that the 1909VDB MPL is a very SPECIAL coin among Lincoln cent proofs. It is very rare. Those that are currently out there, (maybe 100 to 150) are tied up in existing collections. You rarely see a PCGS or NGC certified coin available for sale in any coin media. When you do it is in situations like this particular coin was consigned and offered at a price much greater than the market was willing to pay at that time. The coin comes up for auction maybe three to five times a year. And maybe, there are a few private treaty sales from seller to dealer to buyer that occur from time to time.

That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that there are many current collectors of Lincoln cents who would want to own an example of this variety. The problem is that the price or value has gotten much higher than the average Lincoln cent collector can afford to pay. So, as is the case with this auction already, only those few collectors or investors who can spend over $30k on a single coin can be in this "game". There may be assumptions that the values of copper red coins may be going down, but I believe, as far as the 1909VDB MPL in ANY grade or color will continue to hold its value because of its known rarity and its continued popularity. Good luck to anyone on the boards who is going after this coin for his/her set registry or collection. JMHO.
Steve

WaterSport · December 23, 2009 4:27AM

That is not the only VDB matte up for auction, but unfortunatly, you have to buy the whole 1909 proof set to get it. This Damn work computer will not let me post it but its in the BOCA collection catalog at FUN

http://coins.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=1136&Lot_No=2054

robec · December 23, 2009 4:35AM

">BOCA collection

WaterSport · December 23, 2009 11:16AM

Thanks robec!!!

lusterlover · December 23, 2009 12:54PM

Based on the photos, it looks like it would cross at a 63.

soty27 · December 23, 2009 4:45PM

As some of you know I recently started my own MPL set in the pcgs registry. I actually attempted to look at this coin at the houston show however it had already been sent to auction. I have bid on the coin in this auction but it has reached what I was willing to bid without seeing the coin. I will be taking a look at the coin when I arrive in orlando and if the coin is something I think I would like to have then its going to be a very interesting evening for me. I assume the coin will bring 50K tops but thats just me and it will be interesting to see how far off I am going to be.

I would prefer the 1909 vdb located in the angels assemblage set but it does not appear to be available.

Steve · December 23, 2009 8:46PM

<< 

I would prefer the 1909 vdb located in andy's set but it does not appear to be available. >>

Chris,
It is my understanding that THIS coin, lot #2448, IS the coin Andy had on consignment for a number of months. Good luck. Steve

soty27 · December 24, 2009 3:07AM

<< 

Chris,
It is my understanding that THIS coin, lot #2448, IS the coin Andy had on consignment for a number of months. Good luck. Steve

>>

Yes Steve the VDB in auction is the same one Andy had for several months. If I remember correctly Andy was asking 86K or somewhere around there.

scottgardener · December 24, 2009 3:12AM

It's already beat the amount realized for previous coins of the same grade over the past 2-3 years. Though not all coins are the same at this high end of a grade, the price it's bringing suggests that the PCGS policy change is not making a difference, at least not for this particular item.

soty27 · December 24, 2009 5:42AM

Here are the realized prices for all 1909 vdb matte prrofs from heratige. I dont see one selling in the past 2to 3 years?

Pr
Lot Date Grade Service Realized
Auction 460, Lot 3247 Saturday, February 16, 2008 66 PCGS $69,000.00
Auction 360, Lot 5501 Saturday, January 15, 2005 62 PCGS $5,750.00
Auction 358, Lot 5629 Saturday, November 6, 2004 64 PCGS $7,187.50
Auction 358, Lot 5630 Saturday, November 6, 2004 65 PCGS $20,125.00
Auction 336, Lot 2018 Saturday, January 10, 2004 65 PCGS $20,700.00
Auction 328, Lot 5736 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 65 PCGS $13,800.00
Auction 232, Lot 6731 Monday, August 7, 2000 66 PCGS $14,950.00
Auction 192, Lot 5722 Saturday, September 26, 1998 64 PCGS $3,910.00

BWRC · December 24, 2009 7:02AM

Chris,

Here are some additional example in the last two years.

1909 VDB MATTE PROOF FROM HRCA archives

Steve · December 24, 2009 10:47AM

Seems like the LAST HERITAGE auction that sold a PCGS 65RD 1909VDB MPL was five + years ago when two went for around $20k each. This one is over $37k right now. No question the market has gone up significantly in the past five years so I'm sure no one here is surprised at where it is bid to at this point.
Steve

MoneyLA · December 24, 2009 1:36PM

A question for you experienced Linc collectors: if you know all coins will turn (which in time they will) does a red become a depreciating asset? In other words, do YOU have to TURN IT before IT TURNS ??

pennyannie · December 24, 2009 2:56PM

If the coin has not changed colors in 100 years why do you think it is going to change soon?

Steve · December 24, 2009 11:54PM

<< Seems like the LAST HERITAGE auction that sold a PCGS 65RD 1909VDB MPL was five + years ago when two went for around $20k each. This one is over $37k right now. No question the market has gone up significantly in the past five years so I'm sure no one here is surprised at where it is bid to at this point.
Steve

>>

Andy S has just informed me that the last PCGS 1909VDB MPL graded PR65RD that was sold in auction was the "Close to Perfect" Dan Close example in August, 2007. That coin sold for $46K. Steve

soty27 · December 25, 2009 7:36AM

<< 

<< Seems like the LAST HERITAGE auction that sold a PCGS 65RD 1909VDB MPL was five + years ago when two went for around $20k each. This one is over $37k right now. No question the market has gone up significantly in the past five years so I'm sure no one here is surprised at where it is bid to at this point.
Steve

>>

Andy S has just informed me that the last PCGS 1909VDB MPL graded PR65RD that was sold in auction was the "Close to Perfect" Dan Close example in August, 2007. That coin sold for $46K. Steve

>>

Steve,

Great information, I have been trying to locate archives for VBD mattes and have yet to find very many, Thanks for the info.

Chris

BWRC · December 25, 2009 1:22PM

Here is the Heritage Auction Archives for the 1909 VDB MATTE PROOF Cent from Jan. 12 2008- September 13,2009 (9 coins have been sold)

215 Proof Lincoln Cents
1909 1C VDB PR61 Red and Brown ANACS.... Signature ANACS PR61 September 13, 2009 $8,050.00
(HA.com/Live)

200 Proof Lincoln Cents
1909 1C VDB PR64 Red and Brown PCGS.... Signature PCGS PR64 May 31, 2009 $40,250.00
(Internet)

335 Proof Lincoln Cents
1909 1C VDB PR63 Red and Brown ANACS.... Signature ANACS PR63 March 31, 2009 $19,550.00
(Live: Floor)

3622 Proof Lincoln Cents
1909 1C VDB PR64 Red and Brown NGC.... Signature NGC PR64 January 11, 2009 $16,100.00
(HA.com/Live)

3623 Proof Lincoln Cents
1909 1C VDB PR65 Red and Brown NGC.... Signature NGC PR65 January 11, 2009 $17,250.00
(Internet)

1243 Proof Lincoln Cents
1909 1C VDB PR64 Red and Brown PCGS.... Signature PCGS PR64 August 3, 2008 $34,500.00
(Internet)

295 Proof Lincoln Cents
1909 1C VDB PR66 Red and Brown NGC.... Signature NGC PR66 June 29, 2008 $63,250.00
(Live: Floor)

3247 Proof Lincoln Cents
1909 1C VDB PR66 Red PCGS.... Signature PCGS PR66 February 16, 2008 $69,000.00
(Internet)

515 Proof Lincoln Cents
1909 1C VDB PR64 Brown PCGS. CAC.... Signature PCGS PR64 January 12, 2008 $34,500.00
(Live: Phone

jacktheknife · January 5, 2010 2:08AM

My hat is off to Andy for his "cajones". Just looked at the current bid and noted that the coin is being sold with no reserve.

Way to go, Andy, and best of luck with the bidding.

Jack

WaterSport · January 5, 2010 3:43AM

I guess I will be able to see my "first" VDB Matte while at FUN.

WS

Steve · January 5, 2010 9:59AM

Well, we've had one new bidder and one bump increase since December 22nd from $34,500 to $37,375. A lot of money BUT this is a RARE coin and not available too often. Good luck to anyone on the boards who is going after it. We will know on Thursday evening. Steve

robec · January 5, 2010 10:03AM

That would be a great price for a 65RD. It wasn't that long ago that a 65rb went for over $60k.

Steve · January 7, 2010 3:28AM

We go to the on floor bidding tonight with the bid at $46K including the juice. The 1909VDB MPL remains KING of the Lincoln cents IMHO. Steve

curly · January 7, 2010 10:24AM

Any of you brothers know anything about the PR VDB that was in Lot # 2054? It is a 63 in a ANACS holder. I don't remember the exact hammer price but it was around 22K. Considering you are buying a complete 1909 proof set (minus the gold), the price seems reasonable. IIRC the other coins were NGC graded. Makes me wonder if there is a problem crossing it.

Anxiously awaiting Lot# 2448...

illini420 · January 7, 2010 10:27AM

<< Any of you brothers know anything about the PR VDB that was in Lot # 2054? It is a 63 in a ANACS holder. I don't remember the exact hammer price but it was around 22K. Considering you are buying a complete 1909 proof set (minus the gold), the price seems reasonable. IIRC the other coins were NGC graded. Makes me wonder if there is a problem crossing it.

Anxiously awaiting Lot# 2448... >>

All of the 1909 proofs were in NGC holders except for the VDB which was in an ANACS 63RB holder. Since everything else this guy owned was in NGC, you probaby don't have to wonder too much to think that NGC wouldn't cross it. Still would like to hear if anyone looked at it in hand... seems like a steal, even if it is impaired.

Steve · January 7, 2010 10:54AM

<< Any of you brothers know anything about the PR VDB that was in Lot # 2054? It is a 63 in a ANACS holder. I don't remember the exact hammer price but it was around 22K. Considering you are buying a complete 1909 proof set (minus the gold), the price seems reasonable. IIRC the other coins were NGC graded. Makes me wonder if there is a problem crossing it.

Anxiously awaiting Lot# 2448... >>

Jack,
The 1909 proof set, lot #2054 went for $21,850 with the juice.
Steve

Steve · January 7, 2010 12:43PM

The 1909VDB MPL sold for $47,437.50 with the juice. Congratulations to the winner. The 1913 Liberty Nickel sold for $3,737,500 with the juice. I have a feeling we won't know the name of the new owner, but we shall see what happens.

Steve

curly · January 7, 2010 12:56PM

The VDB sold in the neighborhood that I thought it would. I never held it in my hands so I can only go by the auction photo. I wish I could have been there.

Once again, from the photos, I liked the '09 proof set. $21,850.00 seemed like a very fair price for those coins. The VDB being in an ANACS holder causes me some concern though.

DMWJR · January 7, 2010 1:49PM

The 09 vdb was nice for the grade. solid 65

Steve · January 8, 2010 5:05AM

<< My hat is off to Andy for his "cajones". Just looked at the current bid and noted that the coin is being sold with no reserve.

Way to go, Andy, and best of luck with the bidding.

Jack >>

This coin sold for about what it is worth in todays market. Probably lower than a year ago, but slightly higher than the "Close to Perfect" Dan Close example in 2007. I don't think the changes in the PCGS color guarantee affected the price on this 1909VDB MPL. One of the questions some may be wondering about is Andy Skrabalak's involvement with this coin. As many know, Andy had this coin for sale for a number of months in 2009 at a price of $82,000 which seemed to be significantly higher than market. What I didn't realize until I asked him was that he didn't OWN the coin. It was on consignment to him to sell at the consignors price + Andy's commission. When the consignor found that the coin didn't sell he asked Andy to put the coin into the FUN auction with NO reserve. And so the coin wound up selling at current market IMHO. I wanted to point this out for those of us who know Andy and trust his experience, knowledge, expertise AND his word regarding Lincoln cents and their values.
Steve

renomedphys · January 8, 2010 5:20AM

I think that coin went for EXACTLY the right price. Too bad it wasn't offered the summer before last. Congrats to the new owner, and let's hope we see another complete set soon!

The other MPLs seem to be holding up as well with regard to merit vs. price. I don't think there was a single sinker in the bunch. They ARE rare, and it's not getting any easier to find the nice ones.

pennyannie · January 9, 2010 6:16PM

In a way i am surprised that it only brought 47k, with legend saying the high end coins are alive and well. Wether you like legend or not THEY KNOW coins and seem to say that there is an endless line of buyers out there for high end coins.

On the other hand asking 82k and then selling for 47k? I thought the 82k was high but i had never seen the coin, but i do not recall any threads saying he was crazy asking 82k. The only one that would have been called crazy was a buyer offering Andy 47k for the coin while he had it.

I think the new owner got a nice coin at a most favorable price.

I read where this was not Andy's coin and i was not saying Andy was doing anything wrong. If the economy had not hit the skids 18 months ago the price may have been 82k. And we all nknow how some consigners can be. Until a scubby example can be found for around 10k i will not be able to have one. I was 5 years late to the dance. Than 61 would look nice in my hand

Steve · January 10, 2010 12:10AM

<< In a way i am surprised that it only brought 47k, with legend saying the high end coins are alive and well. Wether you like legend or not THEY KNOW coins and seem to say that there is an endless line of buyers out there for high end coins.

On the other hand asking 82k and then selling for 47k? I thought the 82k was high but i had never seen the coin, but i do not recall any threads saying he was crazy asking 82k. The only one that would have been called crazy was a buyer offering Andy 47k for the coin while he had it.

I think the new owner got a nice coin at a most favorable price. >>

Mark,
I hope you read my comment about Andy's involvement with this coin. He was acting as an agent for the owner and NOT on his own. Andy's reputation may be taking a hit unfairly here because of a misunderstanding of the facts. JMHO.
Steve

HdHunter · January 10, 2010 1:03AM

Steve:
I don’t think anyone is questioning Andy’s reputation concerning the sale of the ’09 VDB PR65RD. I have consigned a coin to Andy in the past, and when it didn’t sell, he orchestrated the offering in an auction and saw to it that I did better then trying to place it in auction myself. Fact is, the price realized on this coin was more reflective of its quality, than downturn in the marketplace. I know several people who viewed this coin, including a Heritage Numismatist. They all felt this was not a pristine VDB. If you look at the image it is clear that there was spotting on the obverse, in particular, above the one and below Lincoln’s shoulder, near the rim. In addition, and to me, more disconcerting, was the apparent nick in the “DB” in VDB in the reverse. IMHO, a more “pristine” coin would have realized higher prices.
With regards to the other MPL’s in this auction, my information is that they were average at best, and thus the prices realized were justified. I would have liked nothing better than to improve the McCullagh Collection MPL Registry Set, but nothing here appealed to me. I also still believe that a PQ specimen is rare, and would likely bring high prices if offered in an auction.
Regards,

Jonathan

robec · January 10, 2010 2:09AM

I think what Mark is talking about has nothing to do with Andy's reputation, but more to the fact in the drop in price of this grade and color. I do think the price level now is closer to where it should be. With a 65RB selling for around $62k within the last year or so, I can see Mark's thinking.

HdHunter · January 10, 2010 3:23AM

Bob:
All I was saying is if it was a nicer coin, the price realized would be significantly higher. IMHO, quality still holds a premium, even in these difficult times.
Jonathan

curly · January 10, 2010 4:04AM

Brothers, I don't know anything about any of the MPLs in the auction. I never saw any of them in hand.

I do agree with Jonathan. The coins all got a fair price. Right now, I think that all the high end (for the grade) MPLs are locked up and will remain that way for a long time to come. When one of these do come out, they are usually already sold beforehand.

You want to know where the market is for high end MPLs? It's in the Registry Sets. The brothers there all know each other and they know where the high end stuff is, who has it, and whether it's for sale or not. If you watch close enough, you'll see there are sales going on there all the time.

Congratulations to the buyers of both VDBs. You each got very popular coins at very fair prices.

robec · January 10, 2010 4:37AM

<< Bob:
All I was saying is if it was a nicer coin, the price realized would be significantly higher. IMHO, quality still holds a premium, even in these difficult times.
Jonathan >>

I agree with you Jonathan. This one did have, at least in the Heritage photos, a good share of fly specks. $47K is still nothing to sneeze at and is at the correct level, as everyone has said. I think if this particular coin would have come to the market in early to mid 2008 it would have gone for a substantially higher premium.

BigRick · January 10, 2010 5:22AM

Asking 82 was merely signaling a point to begin negotiations at best or (for the cynics out there) shot taking at worst.

renomedphys · January 10, 2010 5:23AM

<< I also still believe that a PQ specimen is rare, and would likely bring high prices if offered in an auction.
Regards,

Jonathan >>

HdHunter · January 10, 2010 5:34AM

Bob:
You may be right that it would have brought higher prices during the height of the market; however, if you placed a high-end VDB PR65RD up there today, you would likely see a price nearer the $60K level. How do I know, because I would pay that for one today!
I think there is a tendency for most of us (perhaps with exception of Stewart Blay), not to "offend" someone, by saying anything negative about a coin, especially if it was represented by a favored dealer. IMO that's not right, it misguides the new to the hobby or uneducated collector into thinking they got a “deal”, only to be disappointed when they try to resell the coin at some point in the future. In this instance it was an average coin that brought a fair price....
Jonathan

1909 VDB MPL IN AUCTION AT FUN

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