Kudos to paypal and don't believe it...
notwilight
Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭
...when someone tells you that paypal always finds for the buyer. I had a buyer file a dispute for just under $10,000. We discussed the claim for about a week on the paypal system and paypal found in my favor 3 hours after the buyer escalated it to a claim.
I kept all my communication friendly and factual. It helped my case that he freely admitted that he recieved the items and was disappointed that the price had gone down (buyer's remorse).
Background: I think he's probably a pretty good guy. A friend apparently told him to buy some of the 2008-W PCGS MS70 $10 gold eagles. He hit BIN at $1500 on the day these things took off. He then called and asked if I had any more. With the price rocketing up I was reluctant to sell my entire stock but a profit in the hand is worth 2 in the future so I took his offer and we settled on 7 coins for just under $10k. Turns out he bought in right at the peak (or at least an intermediate top). How many of us have done that in the stock market? Anway, a week later prices had pulled back somewhat and he called and I asked if he wanted some more as I had replenished my stock by then. He said no, that his friend had told him now that he bought too many and he wanted to exchange some of them. He had previously told me he was new to gold investing. I told him I'd be glad to help by recommending some less volitile and high demand gold coins and started calculating some trades. Because the price of these had gone down he was disappointed in my offers, even though I didn't figure in any additional profit on this trade (I know, most dealers would call this a new deal and want a profit for their trouble. But I thought that if I could work him through this I might have picked up a good customer.) Anway, we talked several times and he was disappointed in my offers and finally he filed a dispute. My guess is that his friend told him to do that too. The rest is history.
--jerry
I kept all my communication friendly and factual. It helped my case that he freely admitted that he recieved the items and was disappointed that the price had gone down (buyer's remorse).
Background: I think he's probably a pretty good guy. A friend apparently told him to buy some of the 2008-W PCGS MS70 $10 gold eagles. He hit BIN at $1500 on the day these things took off. He then called and asked if I had any more. With the price rocketing up I was reluctant to sell my entire stock but a profit in the hand is worth 2 in the future so I took his offer and we settled on 7 coins for just under $10k. Turns out he bought in right at the peak (or at least an intermediate top). How many of us have done that in the stock market? Anway, a week later prices had pulled back somewhat and he called and I asked if he wanted some more as I had replenished my stock by then. He said no, that his friend had told him now that he bought too many and he wanted to exchange some of them. He had previously told me he was new to gold investing. I told him I'd be glad to help by recommending some less volitile and high demand gold coins and started calculating some trades. Because the price of these had gone down he was disappointed in my offers, even though I didn't figure in any additional profit on this trade (I know, most dealers would call this a new deal and want a profit for their trouble. But I thought that if I could work him through this I might have picked up a good customer.) Anway, we talked several times and he was disappointed in my offers and finally he filed a dispute. My guess is that his friend told him to do that too. The rest is history.
--jerry
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The name is LEE!
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<< <i>If he used a credit card you haven't won yet. >>
If "friend" is advising him his next suggestion may be a dispute with the CC company IF he used a CC. You may still win in the end but not before proving your case once again to theCC company. Buyers remorse is no excuse. Good Luck
I know low mintage but still
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<< <i>If he used a credit card you haven't won yet. >>
Jerry's good to go. Any dispute involving the CC will be between PP and the CC company. With the amount of business PP does with CC companies, it's not too likely they will side with the buyer based on Jerry's information. Note that Credit Card claims are not automatic. CC investigates a claim by communicating with a seller, in this case PP, and IF WARRANTED will refund to buyer.
Of course there's always the possibility that buyer's CC will warranty purchased merchandise. All he'll have to do is tell them the coins broke.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
If roles were reversed and the price jumped, you would have been obligated to sell the coins, no?
<< <i>He dosn't sound like a good guy too me. His friend sounds like a real slimeball as well.
If roles were reversed and the price jumped, you would have been obligated to sell the coins, no? >>
Sounds like at least one of the two is from Wall Street.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>
<< <i>If he used a credit card you haven't won yet. >>
Jerry's good to go. Any dispute involving the CC will be between PP and the CC company. With the amount of business PP does with CC companies, it's not too likely they will side with the buyer based on Jerry's information. Note that Credit Card claims are not automatic. CC investigates a claim by communicating with a seller, in this case PP, and IF WARRANTED will refund to buyer.
Of course there's always the possibility that buyer's CC will warranty purchased merchandise. All he'll have to do is tell them the coins broke. >>
However, the funds are reversed, if the buyer files a complaint with his CC company, until the dispute is settled or at minimum set aside and not usable by our seller in this situation. Merely inconvenient in the end if the case is as stated.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If he used a credit card you haven't won yet. >>
Jerry's good to go. Any dispute involving the CC will be between PP and the CC company. With the amount of business PP does with CC companies, it's not too likely they will side with the buyer based on Jerry's information. Note that Credit Card claims are not automatic. CC investigates a claim by communicating with a seller, in this case PP, and IF WARRANTED will refund to buyer.
Of course there's always the possibility that buyer's CC will warranty purchased merchandise. All he'll have to do is tell them the coins broke. >>
However, the funds are reversed, if the buyer files a complaint with his CC company, until the dispute is settled or at minimum set aside and not usable by our seller in this situation. Merely inconvenient in the end if the case is as stated. >>
Paypal has already found in Jerry's favor. Any freeze or reversal of credit card funds would MOST LIKELY be eaten by PP.
No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I believe he told PAYPAL that he wanted his deal voided due to "buyer's remorse". And, that brought up an interesting question...
Can Paypal void out a deal due solely to buyer's remorse? In this case the answer was "no" (and paypal made a nice commish in ruling this way as well). But, I would not bet that it always comes out so well for the seller in these cases. Of course, a buyer can have buyer's remorse at Macys or Nordstroms or Sears and I suspect will nearly always get a refund. Was buyers' remorse in a coin deal an automatic loss for the buyer all the time? I am not sure. THOUGHTS?
Wondercoin
How often is "file a dispute with paypal" given as advice in threads here. Buyers think that is just part of the process.
As for the credit card claim, I hope I'm in the clear there. BTW, I just won one of those too. I think Paypal ate that one.
One key to my success, I believe, is NOT starting a thread here until after it is resolved. If I had started a thread here at the beginning there would have been lots of very negative posts about the buyer, guys wanting me to out him so they could block him, some wild and crazy suggestions that just weren't practical, and basically a lynch mob mentality--then someone would have sent him a link to the thread and it would have been very difficult to keep the negotiations calm and factual as they proceeded.
---Jerry
Way to go, Jerry !!!!
Kudos for both the great timing of the sale and the resolution of the dispute!
That is a good point.
In fact, I have used this Forum to help in an 'almost' dispute .
I actually had a newbie customer (who was having buyer's remorse) come to the U.S. COIN FORUM and educate himself ( as a lurker) after his purchase.
Days later, he made additional buys from me, ONLY because of the knowledge he gained here.
<< <i>I believe Jerry likely labeled this guy as a "pretty good guy" for this reason... HE TOLD THE TRUTH.
I believe he told PAYPAL that he wanted his deal voided due to "buyer's remorse". And, that brought up an interesting question...
Can Paypal void out a deal due solely to buyer's remorse? In this case the answer was "no" (and paypal made a nice commish in ruling this way as well). But, I would not bet that it always comes out so well for the seller in these cases. Of course, a buyer can have buyer's remorse at Macys or Nordstroms or Sears and I suspect will nearly always get a refund. Was buyers' remorse in a coin deal an automatic loss for the buyer all the time? I am not sure. THOUGHTS?
Wondercoin >>
Mitch,
On the bulk items I sell I feel I pretty much have to have a Macy's style return policy. I'll give a guy a refund on a $50 item with no questions asked. However, most people just see a spot on the coin (I'm talking undergrades here) and want an exchange. This is driven by the ebay feedback policy that says the buyer is always right but I pretty much had that level of customer service before eBay's recent policy changes. Additionally, it isn't worth my headache to go through a paypal dispute before refunding $50. Returns are part of retail so long as there is no significant loss for the seller. Now if the price had kept going up on this item and for some reason he wanted to return, of course I would have accepted the return. If the price had remained the same then it would have been a tougher decision. I need cash flow and losing $10k of sales for the month would have been significant but it would have been hard to quantify the damages.
In this case, I made it clear to paypal that this was a hot item with rapidly moving prices and in this case the price had pulled back. I pointed out and I'm sure it made them go "hmmmm" that I would never have heard from the guy if the price had kept going up. I pointed out that it would be very difficult to sell any non-numismatic bullion on ebay if returns were required because every time the price of bullion went down the seller would get all the bullion he'd sold for the past 7 days returned. Finally, I pointed out that my return policy is a 100% guarantee that the item will be as described and that I offer to exchange any coin that the buyer finds unacceptable (toning or doesn't agree with the grade) but that I could not guarantee that the price would never go down.
One other time, a couple of years back, I had a buyer want to return a bunch of silver eagles when the price took an unexpected significant decline. He was a known small time dealer and I just told him that he knew better than that and he had to agree.
So to answer your question, my paypal account rep told me straight up that ebay thinks buyers should be able to return items on routine sales--or at least in many cases. So given the lack of market and price fluctuations costing the seller significant dollars, and especially on lower priced items, I think paypal (being owned by ebay) is likely to ask a seller to take these items back. There are other examples where returns would result in a loss for the seller--what if you're selling the hot Christmas toy and they buy one Dec 21, on Dec 25 the kid says "that's not the one I wanted" and now they want to return it after the demand has ebbed. I think you need to very unemotionally and factually present and quantify these losses in your communications. If you lose $40 on a hundred dollar item then paypal might suggest you refund $60 if they return it. No compensation for your labor to resell.
--Jerry
<< <i>This is a good one to read in the morning.
Way to go, Jerry !!!!
Kudos for both the great timing of the sale and the resolution of the dispute!
Thanks. As for the timing of the sale, I did nothing but listed my item at the right price. After someone bought my coins listed at $999, and demand was still going crazy, I noticed other dealers had listed these coins at $2000 or more. I thought that was a little high based on the mintage, pops, and consulting with wondercoin who is the recognized expert on modern pricing. So I picked $1500 and it got me the sale. --Jerry