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1972 Staubach - Trimmed?

The edges don't look frosty and the flip looks OK to me, but there's no way a card has factory edges like this is there? And I suppose even if it did, wouldn't it warrant a qualifier?

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Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

Comments

  • initialDinitialD Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭
    Wow! Roger looks prego!!

    How much closer until it got the miscut ? Just fits in the case!!

    Pretty ugly card, eventhough it's definitely one of the toughest ones out there
  • As I kid I hated this player - but as I have grown to admire real American heroes - is there a better looking rookie card that Roger Staubach ? Navy service, stand up guy, and thorn in the side to every Redskin fan of the 1970's.

    History ....
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    First, it's a simple miscut and not all that uncommon. Second, it's in a PSA 2 and even with a qualifier, it would still count as a 2 in the registry tally! What purpose would it serve ANYONE to crack out another PSA 2 and reseal it with this one?

    I hate to sound like a pompous jackazz, but these kinds of questions border on thoughtless.

    Before anyone goes off on their, "Why respond if you don't have anything positive to say," or "Why would PSA slab this, then," statements, just give it a moment of thought and think about the volume of these types of questions that permeate the boards. I realize that there is a varying level of knowledge and understanding, but these type of posts are repetitive and tiring (at least to me).

    To those that don't understand, take a few minutes to become more informed. First, being informed is a huge advantage and second, it will help you in making smart decisions further on down the road...

  • daddymcdaddymc Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭


    << <i>As I kid I hated this player - but as I have grown to admire real American heroes - is there a better looking rookie card that Roger Staubach ? Navy service, stand up guy, and thorn in the side to every Redskin fan of the 1970's.

    History .... >>



    Exactly. Growing up a Cowboys fan, he was the man. I thought I might buy this for my PC on the cheap and upgrade later. Maybe eventually use it to get signed. I don't especially want it if it's been altered though.
    Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

  • daddymcdaddymc Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭


    << <i>First, it's a simple miscut and not all that uncommon. Second, it's in a PSA 2 and even with a qualifier, it would still count as a 2 in the registry tally! What purpose would it serve ANYONE to crack out another PSA 2 and reseal it with this one?

    I hate to sound like a pompous jackazz, but these kinds of questions border on thoughtless.

    Before anyone goes off on their, "Why respond if you don't have anything positive to say," or "Why would PSA slab this, then," statements, just give it a moment of thought and think about the volume of these types of questions that permeate the boards. I realize that there is a varying level of knowledge and understanding, but these type of posts are repetitive and tiring (at least to me).

    To those that don't understand, take a few minutes to become more informed. First, being informed is a huge advantage and second, it will help you in making smart decisions further on down the road... >>



    First of all, yes you sound like a pompous jackazz.

    Two, lately I've had cards with minor miscuts not get slabbed. Certainly with much less of a degree than this.

    Third, if this was a raw card I'm guessing that you'd probably be one of the first to jump on it and say it was trimmed.
    Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

  • I like that card, but I like all the old Cowboys cards. I would pick it up if it was cheap enough just to have it.
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭


    << <i>
    First of all, yes you sound like a pompous jackazz.

    Two, lately I've had cards with minor miscuts not get slabbed. Certainly with much less of a degree than this.

    Third, if this was a raw card I'm guessing that you'd probably be one of the first to jump on it and say it was trimmed. >>



    As per your third statement, I'd suggest you reevaluate your assessment of my skills.

    With regard to your second statement, in most cases, anything VG/EX or less that is miscut will get slabbed.

    As per your first statement, I am quite pompous, but I also stand by my original comments. Unlike many, I put my word behind what I say regardless of whether anyone else agrees. It's called having conviction and integrity and way too much experience (ie. being around too long and being too old).
  • daddymcdaddymc Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭


    << <i>As per your third statement, I'd suggest you reevaluate your assessment of my skills.

    With regard to your second statement, in most cases, anything VG/EX or less that is miscut will get slabbed.

    As per your first statement, I am quite pompous, but I also stand by my original comments. Unlike many, I put my word behind what I say regardless of whether anyone else agrees. It's called having conviction and integrity and way too much experience (ie. being around too long and being too old). >>



    Well 'ol great one, then please forgive me for asking such mundane and thoughtless questions in your presence. Perhaps they can create a new forum for the mindless drones such as myself where we can ask such questions. That will leave the general forum uncluttered for "elites" like yourself.

    From what I have read in the past, you have some really good knowledge. It's just a shame that a member like yourself that can't find it within themselves to share it anymore without being a pompous jackazz.
    Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>As per your third statement, I'd suggest you reevaluate your assessment of my skills.

    With regard to your second statement, in most cases, anything VG/EX or less that is miscut will get slabbed.

    As per your first statement, I am quite pompous, but I also stand by my original comments. Unlike many, I put my word behind what I say regardless of whether anyone else agrees. It's called having conviction and integrity and way too much experience (ie. being around too long and being too old). >>



    Well 'ol great one, then please forgive me for asking such mundane and thoughtless questions in your presence. Perhaps they can create a new forum for the mindless drones such as myself where we can ask such questions. That will leave the general forum uncluttered for "elites" like yourself.

    From what I have read in the past, you have some really good knowledge. It's just a shame that a member like yourself that can't find it within themselves to share it anymore without being a pompous jackazz. >>



    Actually, while it may appear that I'm a pompous azz, I probably speak for more than a few that are tired of the repetitive questions and suggestions that clutter these boards.

    If speaking my mind infuriates you or makes you feel inferior, then get a grip on reality. I'm not the one that's making you feel that way nor am I implying that you, or anyone else is better than or inferior to ANYONE on these boards. What I am stating, and I will repeat, the endless suggestions and/or questions about the same tiresome topics based upon ill fated logic or ignorance is rather annoying.

    I appreciate those that are looking to be educated or to expand their knowledge base, but get sickened by those that ask and when challenged or questioned, get defensive. I merely pointed out that the card was miscut and not trimmed. I would've suggested the same were it presented raw. As an aside, I stepped a bit over the line and exhausted some of my frustrations with regard to the "frosty," "misgraded," "switched" and other endless claims that get erroneously noted. Perhaps it was misfortune that yours was the post that finally led to me venting. I just wish people, yourself included, would see my point for what it is/was and not as some personal attack, which it was not intended to be. It was more of an indictment of a larger segment of the board populace. Sadly, you got caught in the cross hairs.

    I will refrain from any more comment on the subject...
  • daddymcdaddymc Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    Actually, while it may appear that I'm a pompous azz, I probably speak for more than a few that are tired of the repetitive questions and suggestions that clutter these boards.

    If speaking my mind infuriates you or makes you feel inferior, then get a grip on reality. I'm not the one that's making you feel that way nor am I implying that you, or anyone else is better than or inferior to ANYONE on these boards. What I am stating, and I will repeat, the endless suggestions and/or questions about the same tiresome topics based upon ill fated logic or ignorance is rather annoying.

    I appreciate those that are looking to be educated or to expand their knowledge base, but get sickened by those that ask and when challenged or questioned, get defensive. I merely pointed out that the card was miscut and not trimmed. I would've suggested the same were it presented raw. As an aside, I stepped a bit over the line and exhausted some of my frustrations with regard to the "frosty," "misgraded," "switched" and other endless claims that get erroneously noted. Perhaps it was misfortune that yours was the post that finally led to me venting. I just wish people, yourself included, would see my point for what it is/was and not as some personal attack, which it was not intended to be. It was more of an indictment of a larger segment of the board populace. Sadly, you got caught in the cross hairs.

    I will refrain from any more comment on the subject... >>



    Actually, by your own admission you are pompous and sound like a pompous jackazz. I'm just agreeing with you.

    As far as being tired of my question(s) or anyone elses for that matter, why are you the only one complaining? I'd love to hear others chime in if that is the case. Otherwise if I want to ask a question I will ask it, and I encourage others to do so as well. Just ignore them. How hard is that?

    I never challenged your opinion that the card was miscut. I have just never seen a card with a factory miscut that poor. As a matter of fact, partly based on your opinion I would have bid on that card had I not been interrupted by my kids.

    Why are you even here if you dislike and are tired of the general populace of the board and our mundane and trivial questions? You obviously feel that the "neighborhood" has gone downhill. Don't they make stuffier boards for the "elite" like yourself?
    Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

  • bbcemporiumbbcemporium Posts: 684 ✭✭✭
    First off, I don't mind these threads, and personally enjoy them more than threads about modern cards, TTMs, etc.

    Secondly, back to the topic on hand, due to the right edge of the card, I also am curious how a factory cut could cause an edge like that? Maybe I'm ignorant on the factory cutting process, but I've always assumed a factory miscut would at least be linear. It appears the right edge has a minimum of 3 cuts.

    Registry Sets

    "Common sense is the best distributed commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it"
  • I am 100% certain that card is not trimmed. How can I be so certain you ask? Because PSA slabbed it, and they dont make mistakes. Case closed

    On the second tangent this thread has taken, yes OTW is a pompus jackazz, and he will be the first to admit it. As the saying goes though, its not bragging, if you can back it up.....the guy knows his shiznit

    I personally dont mind these types of threads, it doesnt mean I read them, I just dont mind them.

    Carry on ladies! image


  • << <i>The edges don't look frosty and the flip looks OK to me, but there's no way a card has factory edges like this is there? And I suppose even if it did, wouldn't it warrant a qualifier? >>



    I'll do ya one better (bottom edge...on a 9!!):

    image
    image
  • daddymcdaddymc Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The edges don't look frosty and the flip looks OK to me, but there's no way a card has factory edges like this is there? And I suppose even if it did, wouldn't it warrant a qualifier? >>



    I'll do ya one better (bottom edge...on a 9!!):

    image >>



    That's more of what I picture a miscut being. A fairly straight cut causing a parallelogram or trapezoid rather than a true rectangle. Now the grade, that's a different story. I'm not familar with that issue. Back to the subject card, the Staubach has more of a wave, which I personally haven't seen before. It almost seems as if there are multiple cuts. Like another poster above, I am not familar with the cutting process and curious about how that kind of cut would occur.
    Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    The miscut in question (Staubach) most commonly occurs when the sheet shifts or rolls during the cutting process. While not a normal occurrence, it is seen from time to time, especially on late 1960's through mid 1970's cards. Not certain if there was a change in the cutting techniques or mechanisms, but usually, when seen, there is a bit of a ripple or cut crease on the bulging side and the opposite side is not a symmetrical miscut. And as I mentioned, in the case of low grade miscuts, PSA tends to put them in holders as long as they fit. Most of the modern cards are rejected because they are typically of higher grade and/or will not fit in the holder.

    I wish I had images of some of the really weird looking factory miscuts I've seen over the years. Many have been straight from wax and vending, so there the possibility of them being altered post factory is very slim.
  • trimmed, no
    fugly. yes lol
  • daddymcdaddymc Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The miscut in question (Staubach) most commonly occurs when the sheet shifts or rolls during the cutting process. While not a normal occurrence, it is seen from time to time, especially on late 1960's through mid 1970's cards. Not certain if there was a change in the cutting techniques or mechanisms, but usually, when seen, there is a bit of a ripple or cut crease on the bulging side and the opposite side is not a symmetrical miscut. And as I mentioned, in the case of low grade miscuts, PSA tends to put them in holders as long as they fit. Most of the modern cards are rejected because they are typically of higher grade and/or will not fit in the holder.

    I wish I had images of some of the really weird looking factory miscuts I've seen over the years. Many have been straight from wax and vending, so there the possibility of them being altered post factory is very slim. >>



    Thanks! So if I'm following correctly each card is only cut once. But if the sheet shifts and "bubbles up" in a small section, then when cut it can potentially produce the bulging cut seen above on the one side. Since the miscut is somewhat "localized", it could then slip through QC.

    This one is slabbed, but outside of knowing the source, is there a way to discern if the cut is "factory" when examining a raw card?
    Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭✭
    Otwcards explained this perfectly about the shifting in the sheets during the cutting process. I've seen this most commonly in 67's and 69 baseball.
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    Cards are cut up to four times. In the old, old days, they were often hand cut. This advanced to rotary cuts and guillotine cuts. Most of the processes are completely mechanized now and use "laser" techniques or internal blade systems.

    With the previous example I cited, think of using a straight edge and having the subject material shift. Have you ever used a pair of scissors on a very thin piece of paper and it shifts between the scissor blades and gets cut all out of kilter? This should help you visualize the process a little better. The adjacent sides are symmetrical because they were cut on a different pass of the blade. The opposite side may or may not exhibit a symmetrical congruence to the miscut side. In most cases, with the "pregnant" cut, it will not. On a skewed cut (trapezoid), the opposite sides will be parallel but will not for right angles at the corners (opposite corners will have one obtuse and one acute angle).

    Hope this helps,
    Ye Pompous ol' Elite Great One
  • daddymcdaddymc Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Have you ever used a pair of scissors on a very thin piece of paper and it shifts between the scissor blades and gets cut all out of kilter? This should help you visualize the process a little better. >>



    Actually, now that you bring it up, this is a perfect example as it happens all of the time when I'm cutting out shipping labels. Thanks old Elite Great One! image

    I'm still curious though, if I may inquire on a related tangent. If I have a raw example in hand, are there any telltale signs that one should look for that hint of trimming rather than a factory cut or vice versa?
    Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

  • nam812nam812 Posts: 10,531 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>........Thanks old Elite Great One! image............... >>



    You left out pompous. Just saying.
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭
    It is very difficult to explain exactly what to look for when examining a card for trimming because cut characteristics vary greatly from issue to issue and some issues even have different cut characteristics on the same card (vintage Bowman is a prime example as they appear to be rotary cuts on one set of opposite sides and straight blade cuts on the other set of opposite sides.

    Most cards are not trimmed on all four sides, so look, from the side, at the cut characteristics of the edges. They should be uniform and consistent (at least when compared to the opposite edge). Also, running your finger lightly over the edge may reveal a side that is smoother than factory cut edges. This is a telltale sign of a potentially trimmed card. This also occurs when a card edge is filed or shaved.

    Interesting how this thread has turned into a brief lesson. I typically refrain from these discussions because some prefer to accuse my of knowing to much and making suggestions that challenge my character. They dismiss the fact that I know these traits through years of experience and several years as a Senior Grader and Authenticator. But I digress. I've certainly heard and been accused of worse when I post this information...

  • daddymcdaddymc Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Most cards are not trimmed on all four sides, so look, from the side, at the cut characteristics of the edges. They should be uniform and consistent (at least when compared to the opposite edge). Also, running your finger lightly over the edge may reveal a side that is smoother than factory cut edges. This is a telltale sign of a potentially trimmed card. This also occurs when a card edge is filed or shaved. >>



    That is helpful, and I didn't know that about the vintage Bowman issues. I would imagine that it's somewhat difficult knowing from an online scan though, outside of maybe waviness? That being said, you and others knew right away that the Staubach was not trimmed. What was the giveaway there?

    This thread did take an interesting turn, but IMO knowledge that's not shared is knowledge wasted. Thanks for sharing tonight.
    Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭


    << <i> you and others knew right away that the Staubach was not trimmed. What was the giveaway there? >>



    Not trying to sound pompous, but years of experience and having seen virtually everything you can see in the way of trimmed cards versus miscuts cards. It's sort of the same way that a radiologist can look at a series of MRI's and tell you exactly what he sees and what every shadow is while we generally see just a myriad of gray variants...
  • daddymcdaddymc Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i> you and others knew right away that the Staubach was not trimmed. What was the giveaway there? >>



    Not trying to sound pompous, but years of experience and having seen virtually everything you can see in the way of trimmed cards versus miscuts cards. It's sort of the same way that a radiologist can look at a series of MRI's and tell you exactly what he sees and what every shadow is while we generally see just a myriad of gray variants... >>



    No problem, just trying to dig into your gray matter a little further on the topic. Time to come up with a new topic for my next post. image
    Currently working on: Kurt Warner PSA 9 or 10

  • cardbendercardbender Posts: 1,831 ✭✭
    Check out this slabbed card. I sent this in for grading myself many years ago. Sold it on ebay probably back in 2000 or so.

    Not trimmed, just badly miscut. I actually sent it in thinking it would not be slabbed but wondered how PSA would handle it.

    Nowadays I highly doubt a cut like this would get slabbed by PSA, instead it would be sent back to the submitter unslabbed miscut.

    image

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