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Peace dollar rays do not converge at a point...
RWB
Posts: 8,082 ✭
....rather they define a diffuse area. This is a 1921 reverse.
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Do you think you are the first to realize this? (This is a serious question)
So are there any of the original drawings of the reverse available for comparison?
--Severian the Lame
neat idea.
But, hey..............what do I know
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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I expect it has been noticed many times before, but not described where many would be able to comment.
The only "first" I'll claim is being the first to post such an illustration on November 29, 2009.
<< <i>not at all unlike point of convergence with bloodstain pattern interpretation.
A. closeups of the lines over the rays to verify their vector, and
B. the rest of the rays drawn.
Also, should they converge to a point?
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- A picture of an actual Peace dollar press and the process of which a coin was produced
- A picture of a cancelled Peace $ die
- For the 3 day 1921 production run, how many dies were used and how many different combinations there were
- Mintmark placements and the reasons there is so much variation in a given year
As for myself, I find that the only thing that converges to a point,
is my head.
Camelot
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>Ah...if only we had the coiner and engraver's records.....your questions could be answered. >>
Good point. Unlike the one on bear's head.
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Previously I had assumed that each ray was from a sun in a parallel universe.
I also used to think that the word "trust" was accidently misspelled on all Peace dollars, until I came across the theory that they were using up all those "V"s left over when the Liberty Head nickel series ended!
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RWB - I think you connected 2 different rays - the 2nd to the left of the eagles head is joined with a neighbor below as all rays seem to follow long/short/long/short motiff
Hoard the keys.
Might have. Never did well at ray tracing for telescopes, either.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>this is commonly referred to as an optical conclusion >>
Actually, it is an optical delusion!
to Adam, Hoss and Little Joe if they promised to rename it "Focus,"
which means "where the sons raise meat!"
More likely, my hunch is that they are where they are for artistic reasons - when the sculpt was first rendered, I would be willing to bet that the priority in placing the rays was making them look right in accordance with the compositional details that surround them rather than a true perspective. Speaking first hand, there are many times I have taken great pains to render a technical drawing as accurately as possible, only to have it 'look' completely wrong.
**
To provide an example, take a look at Gilbert Stuart's famous portrait of Jefferson -
Now compare it to the etching on the $2 bill -
The latter is a direct derivative of the former - (obviously the image has been reversed, which is what happens when you interpret a painting by hand onto a copper plate & then make a print from it.) The original painting looks very warm & human... to me, it actually conveys some sense of Jefferson's complex persona - in contrast, the etching is very tight, stringy, and almost struggles to appear life-like. Further analysis reveals that the etching is a very faithful rendering of the original - virtually every aspect of the painting has been recreated linearly as faithfully as possible - but as any of you who have studied the original Stuart up close & in person & might attest to, in the painting, some of the most critical details of Jefferson's structure are not concretely defined but only alluded to with the artist's expert use of light & shadow (particularly under the jaw & moving back toward Jefferson's ear,) a technique that while very complimentary to the subject at hand, unfortunately does not lend itself to the kind of copying used to create the $2 bill portrait, hence the resultant severe discrepancy in its overall impression.
My point is, that with this kind of art, you can get everything 'right' and still get it 'wrong.'
With respect to the Peace Dollar, I think it might be interesting for someone with more time than I have to use photoshop to readjust all the sun rays on the reverse in accordance with a fixed perspective so that we can see what it would do for the overall composition - my hunch is that in doing so, we might loose some of the warmth contained by the original.
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(Personally, I think the reason for the differences is that in the engraving Jefferson wasn’t wearing pants and he was chilly.)
<< <i>The sun's rays do not originate from one point. They orignate from a VERY LARGE curved surface. >>
That's the answer. If the sun is larger than that mass of intersecting lines (as it obviously is), then the Peace dollar rays could all come from the same source. No inconsistency there.
I actually just did the same analysis as you after reading this, and as opposed to you tracing out 7 rays, I traced every-other one (16 total). An few patterns emerged, starting with the RIGHT SIDE:
(1) The first ray shows no pattern with the others.
(2) The next set of 4 rays (remember, this refers to every-other one) actually all do intersect at the same point, or VERY close to it.
(3) The next set of 5 rays show a rosette-type pattern.
(4) Next two show no pattern.
(5) Next four show the rosette pattern.
The reverse I used was a 1922.
Actively Collecting: Yearly Mint Stuff, Ikes, SBAs
Passively Collecting: All coins currently circulating
Type Set: (20th-21st century) First year of issue (or 1901), P Mint, ALL varieties
the 1922 was reengraved to make flatter and allow dies to last longer (I think)
On the reverse, ONE DOLLAR is placed over the rays; on the obverse, LIBERTY is under the rays. What is the symbolism here - that money takes precedence over liberty? Of course, I am reading too much into it, and the obverse and reverse stand alone. But it just rubs me the wrong way.
merse
1922 and later Peace dollars were made from entirely new models, not reengraved 1921 designs.
Speaking of the Rays on the Peace dollar, I have never cared for the way the rays of Ms. Liberty's crown supersede the B of LIBERTY. The I and E are carefully placed to avoid direct conflict with the rays, but the B is almost bisected. I suppose it was artistically necessary to the design, but I just don't like it….
It is purely an artistic treatment done to more tightly integrate design elements. It also avoids the use of concentric rings common on coinage. You can see it on other US coins, too.
Which is why the two extended ray drawings are different.
<< <i>
<< <i>The sun's rays do not originate from one point. They orignate from a VERY LARGE curved surface. >>
That's the answer. If the sun is larger than that mass of intersecting lines (as it obviously is), then the Peace dollar rays could all come from the same source. No inconsistency there. >>
Actually, they would originate from one point if the surface of the sun wasn't there. If you were to follow the rays inward, they would all eventually originate from the center of the sun. Just because we see them coming from a large curved surface doesn't mean that that's what it is. Draw a circle with rays coming out of it, then draw all rays inward and (in theory) they all would intersect at the same point. When it comes to something as precise as the sun, they DO intersect at the same point; the center.
I guess that explains why Peace dollars don't tone evenly.
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Rant over.
<< <i>The sun's rays do not originate from one point. They orignate from a VERY LARGE curved surface. >>
This is all assuming the ideal symmetry driving this topic:
This is only a partly accurate description. The rays, even on a curved space, should eventually converge at the center of the sphere, even if from the surface they do not seem to originate from the same point, following them down to a singular core should produce this starting point. We still dont see that in the peace dollar. However, the real sun is a 3d object, with points crossing the surface of the sun in 2 different dimensions. Whereas on the coin the rays and the unseen sun are a 2d object crossing at 1 dimension. You lose a dimension in translation and thus the potential for a convergence.