There is no such thing as NT or AT!
ecichlid
Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭
There is no such thing as NT or AT! That line is drawn differently for every single collector. It's different for every dealer and for every TPG too.
So to debate NT vs. AT is actually pointless and will go nowhere. It's an emotional subject because there is no clearly agreed upon definition. It's how you feel at the moment on the subject.
The point of intent is also a funny one. Toning is toning. A point can even be made that ALL toning is artificial or even natural! Prove me wrong.
So to debate NT vs. AT is actually pointless and will go nowhere. It's an emotional subject because there is no clearly agreed upon definition. It's how you feel at the moment on the subject.
The point of intent is also a funny one. Toning is toning. A point can even be made that ALL toning is artificial or even natural! Prove me wrong.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
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Just because you don't believe there's a difference, doesn't mean others don't make the distinction. Respectfully...Mike
that there are no jelly donut
eating bears.
Their are several categories of toning
1. Accelerated toning (Catalyst, heat, pressure, moisture, napkins )
2. Chemical toning
3. Toning by gas diffusion
4. Keebler Cookie toning (oven)
Truly NT, over long periods of time, without striping the original skin
has in most cases a subtle look, that is in great measure stable when
properly stored and is quite lovely.Sometimes we see cleaned coins
that develop secondary NT which can also be lovely but somewhat
lacking in depth of luster, under the toning.
AT coins by a master coin doctor can, in some cases, come quite close
to NT. However, we see frequent colors too spectacular to be natural.
We see unstable colors that tend to turn muddy over time. The coins
may often be lacking in depth of luster as AT coins must be stripped of
original skin prior to application of the artificial means of toning.
Remember, If a coin looks too good to be true, it may indeed not be true.
Camelot
<< <i>The next thing you will say, is
that there are no jelly donut
eating bears.
If a bear eats in the woods and nobody sees it, did it really happen?
Abe Lincoln once asked: if you count the tail of a dog as a leg, how many legs does a dog then have?
Answer: 4, you can call a tail a leg but it does not make it one.
AT is AT no matter what you call it.
bob
There is an interesting and debatable parallel to the female anatomy here...
<< <i>
<< <i>The next thing you will say, is
that there are no jelly donut
eating bears.
If a bear eats in the woods and nobody sees it, did it really happen? >>
Next Old Bridge show.... we need to take a pic of a Jelly donut over your case for Bear
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<< <i>For the most part it is meaningless debate. The more relevant question is "how old is the toning?" If it could be accurately answered, that would be the question I would want to know the answer to. >>
Good question that you will hardly ever get an answer to. I'm trying to picture the day someone looks at a blast white coin and says "Look! It's starting to tone today!", marks the date on their calendar and then reports that information back to you. Ha!
There are jelly doughnut eating bears. We all know that. There is no debate here on that one.
<< <i>
<< <i>The next thing you will say, is
that there are no jelly donut
eating bears.
If a bear eats in the woods and nobody sees it, did it really happen? >>
The clue is in what the bear leaves behind.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>There is no such thing as NT or AT to you.
There is an interesting and debatable parallel to the female anatomy here... >>
Blonde or brunette?
<< <i>
<< <i>There is no such thing as NT or AT to you.
There is an interesting and debatable parallel to the female anatomy here... >>
Blonde or brunette? >>
Blonde
Hoard the keys.
that there are no jelly donut
eating bears.>>
Sorry Bear, no jelly; will these do?
<< <i>"There is no such thing as NT or AT! "
Just because you don't believe there's a difference, doesn't mean others don't make the distinction. Respectfully...Mike >>
bingo
Guess wrapped in paper for almost 40 years is enough to create stable toning since the 30 some I found have not changed over several years.
The look of NT Ikes is unmistakable. There is only a very modest bump in valuation so nobody is "making" and marketing this appearance.
The exception, by the way, is the rare Ike Brown Pack Proof that toned with ravishing deep breath-taking colors while still in its plastic box, with a pattern of toning consistent with brown packs (usually target). But it's so easy to AT Ikes in their original plastic that I wouldn't spend buckets here either. Bear hit the nail on the head: if the toning remained stable for the next ten years and was fully transluscent with full underlying luster, one might have a winner.
I keep a 10 foot pole handy for the occasional "monster toned" Ike that shows up in shows, stores and on the Internet: for quite a while PCGS was holdering "market acceptible" AT (IMHO) Ikes. I have no major beef with this tactic, though I put it in the same collecting category as PCGS PR70DCAM Ike proofs, a waste of money (Ike proof fields seem to be intrinsically unstable and their die-polish lines also become more obvious and intrusive over time), but to each his own.
Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
<< <i>Isn't the difference really accidental vs. deliberate toning? >>
Good point......Here's one that was on my file cabinet for a while. I thought it was in a capsule but the top was off. NT.... but accidental or deliberate??? Bet it would not grade...
<< <i>There is no such thing as NT or AT!
>>
Well it all depends on how you look at the subject matter and how you perceive and apply it.....
That line is drawn differently for every single collector
When I see comments like the above I wonder how could the OP possibly know that every single collector
draws a different line with respect to NT/AT? I am fairly confident there can be arrived at some reasonable number of NT/AT definitions that most
collectors could be assigned to versus the 10,000, 100,000 whatever # distinct opinions the OP declares exist.
I know little or better yet almost nothing about toning but I will guess albeit naively that many collectors would feel not at odds with...
NT: by whatever method the toning occurred the toning was incidental to the collector's goal, most likely an innocent storage/ time issue.
AT: by whatever method the toning occurred the toning was an explicit or hoped for objective.
How to definitively distinguish between the above is beyond me and since I have no affinity for toned coins I don't care.