newp - 1599 taler Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel

worldcoinguy

I thought I had come up empty on the Goldberg auction, but one lot came through after all. This "wasp" taler from the German State of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel arrived today. I was attracted to the distinctive design and overall appearance.



1599 - Taler - Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel (DAV-9093)





Updated to fix the broken links on my humble original post....

JCMhouston

Very nice, I'ce always liked that design.

WWW

I was very tempted to bid on that one. Nice Taler!

lordmarcovan

O man, do I like that one.

worldcoinguy

I just learned some fascinating historical context on this piece from Christian on the coincommunity site (fid: chrisild). I wanted to share a little additional background that Christian provided, as it makes the imagery on the taler all the more interesting.

The Mückentaler ("Mosquito Thaler"), which is also called the Wespentaler ("Wasp Thaler"), was issued by Duke Heinrich Julius as a subtle commentary on his conflict with some noble families (Steinberg, Stockheim, etc.). He issued a few talers in the late 1590s that mocked these families. This particular piece shows a lion, representing the Duke, who is attacked by ten mosquitos (the noble families). The eagle above symbolizes the Emperor who protects and helps the lion/duke. The allusions made on these pieces were by and large understood by the locals at the time. The other talers issued by Duke Heinrich Julius include the Rebellentaler (Rebels Thaler), the Lügentaler (Lies Thaler), and the Wahrheitstaler (Truth Thaler).

I admit that my knowledge of Duke Heinrich Julius is poor at best, but after a few quick google searches, I see some events in 1589 that certainly would have changed the social-political balance of power, ultimately leading to this discord between the duke and the nobles. I suspect that Heinrich Julius was proud of himself and not timid about letting others know. At age 14, he took over administration of the Bishopric of Halberstadt and became active as a temporal as well as spiritual ruler. At age 25, he succeeded his father as ruler of Wolfenbüttel. Shortly after taking power, he replaced Saxon Law by Roman Law, which would have been significant in the eyes of the influential noble families. At this time, the judges were traditionally from the noble families. Heinrich Julius replaced the nobles with lawyers with academic degrees, which you can imagine was not very popular with the nobles.

Zohar

You are the man!

Lynch

<< <i>I just learned some fascinating historical context on this piece from Christian on the coincommunity site (fid: chrisild). I wanted to share a little additional background that Christian provided, as it makes the imagery on the taler all the more interesting.

The Mückentaler ("Mosquito Thaler"), which is also called the Wespentaler ("Wasp Thaler"), was issued by Duke Heinrich Julius as a subtle commentary on his conflict with some noble families (Steinberg, Stockheim, etc.). He issued a few talers in the late 1590s that mocked these families. This particular piece shows a lion, representing the Duke, who is attacked by ten mosquitos (the noble families). The eagle above symbolizes the Emperor who protects and helps the lion/duke. The allusions made on these pieces were by and large understood by the locals at the time. The other talers issued by Duke Heinrich Julius include the Rebellentaler (Rebels Thaler), the Lügentaler (Lies Thaler), and the Wahrheitstaler (Truth Thaler).

I admit that my knowledge of Duke Heinrich Julius is poor at best, but after a few quick google searches, I see some events in 1589 that certainly would have changed the social-political balance of power, ultimately leading to this discord between the duke and the nobles. I suspect that Heinrich Julius was proud of himself and not timid about letting others know. At age 14, he took over administration of the Bishopric of Halberstadt and became active as a temporal as well as spiritual ruler. At age 25, he succeeded his father as ruler of Wolfenbüttel. Shortly after taking power, he replaced Saxon Law by Roman Law, which would have been significant in the eyes of the influential noble families. At this time, the judges were traditionally from the noble families. Heinrich Julius replaced the nobles with lawyers with academic degrees, which you can imagine was not very popular with the nobles. >>



Very interesting and informative. They look more like wasps than mosquitos to me. Both are annoying and undesirable, but the wasp definitely has the nastier bite.

Nice piece, BTW.

EVillageProwler

If you look at the Kuenker auction description for this coin (not the same coin!), they explain why the flying critters are more likely mosquitos than wasps. (The text is in German though.)

Thanks to the Z-man for letting me have this very interesting coin. And thanks to WCG for the interesting write-up.

EVillageProwler

Here is the relevant snippet from that Kuenker auction:



Überdurchschnittlich erhalten. Hübsche Patina, fast vorzüglich

Das vorliegende Stück gehört zu der Reihe der sogenannten emblematischen Taler, die auf die Streitigkeiten des Herzogs mit einigen landständischen Adeligen Bezug nehmen. Auf diesem Stück wird der Herzog durch einen Löwen symbolisiert, angegriffen von 10 Wespen oder Mücken, den Klägern. Über dem Ganzen schwebt der kaiserliche Adler.



In unseren Katalogen haben wir früher diesen Talertyp als Wespentaler bezeichnet. Aus einer Briefabschrift aus dem Staatsarchiv Wolfenbüttel geht allerdings hervor, daß der Herzog seine Widersacher selbst als wohl nicht so bedrohlich wie Wespen, sondern eher als lästig wie Mücken ansah:



"Unserem Mahler und lieben getreuen Joachim Stolten,



Lieber getreuer, es ist Unser gnädiges Begern, Du wolltest noch alsbald von Unserm schneider eine Reuterfanen von roten Damast verfertigen laßen in der größe, wie die andere, und soll in dieselbige mit Gold, silber und farben gemalen werden ein Law, so auf den hindern sizet und über ihn sol schweben ein Adler und die Sonnenstralen sollen ihn anscheinen und ezliche mücken umb die nase herumfliehen auff dieselbige Art, wie auff die Daler gepräget worden.



Datum, Magdeburgk, den 26. April Anno



Heinrich Julius, Meine Handt"



Der Wespentaler müßte deshalb eigentlich Mückentaler genannt werden.

marcmoish

translated via google



Above average condition. Pretty Patina, fast vorzüglich

translated via google



This piece is part of the series of so-called emblematic Taler, which refer to the dispute of the Duke with some of the estates noble respect. On this piece of Duke is symbolized by a lion, attacked by wasps or mosquitoes 10, the plaintiffs. Over the whole of the imperial eagle hovers.



In our catalogs we have previously referred to this type as wasps Taler Taler. From a letter copy from the State Archive Wolfenbüttel however it appears that the Duke his adversaries even as probably not as threatening as wasps, but rather as a nuisance as looked mosquitoes:



"Our Mahler and dear faithful Joachim Stolten,



Dear faithful, it is our gracious Begern, You wanted more immediately from our tailor a Reuterfanen of red damask manufacture let in size, like the others, and is in sameness with gold, are silver and colors gemalen a Law, so stop on the sizet and about him sol float an eagle and the Sonnenstralen should anscheinen him and ezliche mosquitoes mod the nose flee auff sameness way auff the Daler been gepräget.



Date, Magdeburgk, 26 April Anno



Heinrich Julius, My Handt "



The wasps Taler would therefore be properly called mosquito Taler.

EVillageProwler

I used google translate too, and didn't like the translation so I asked a friend who is fluent in High German (he's Swiss) to translate for me.



Btw, the Kuenker lot description is for a different specimen of the same coin.

Zohar

Here is one to translate - LINK

pruebas

That's a nice Thaler, but they look like bees to me with their fat abdomins. Although I guess the outstretched hind legs are more indicative of wasps.



I like Thalers like this without ugly old men on the obverse.



I'm beginning to think EVP has a thing for grand eagles on his coins.

EVillageProwler

Pruebas: I have a thing for nice, interesting coins.



Here is the translation provided by my Swiss friend:



"Above average condition. Pretty patina, almost preferred

The piece before you belongs to the family of so called emblematic Talers which refer to the fights of the duke with the nobility of the country side. In this piece the duke is symbolized by a lion attacked by 10 wasps or mosquito, the accusers. Above it all floats the eagle of the Kaiser



In our catalog we earlier referred to this type of Taler as Wasp Taler. However, from a copy of a letter from the states archive Wolfenbuttel it is apparent that the duke didn't see his opponents as dangerous as wasps but rather as annoying mosquitos



To our painter and dear Joachim stolen,



Dear trusted friend. It is our humble wish that you shall have a Reuter flag made of red Damast by our tailor, the same in size as the other and shall be painted in gold and silver and colors a lion seated on his behind and above him shall hover an eagle and rays is sunlight shall illuminate and pestering mosquitos shall fly around his nose just as was done with the Taler



.....



The Wasp Taler should therefore be called mosquito Talers"

EVillageProwler

Originally posted by: worldcoinguy
Shortly after taking power, he replaced Saxon Law by Roman Law, which would have been significant in the eyes of the influential noble families. At this time, the judges were traditionally from the noble families. Heinrich Julius replaced the nobles with lawyers with academic degrees, which you can imagine was not very popular with the nobles.

This reminds me of my university studies of Anglo-Saxon and Roman history... The Romans believed in a regimented, professional approach to government, including law. The Anglo-Saxons, and presumably the Saxons some 500 years hence, preferred a more tribal approach with a council of elders called witenagemot.

I wonder how to say, in German: Fear, fire, foe, foul! (And, if it sounds as poetic in German as it does in English.)

EVillageProwler

There's some dispute whether the mint is Goslar or Osterode. More sources say Osterode (only Krause say Goslar that I can find), so that is what I'm using.

Need some help translating part of the obverse legend. What do "P . E . HA" and "P . P . C" stand for? I'm guessing "HA" stands for Halberstadt, since he was also bishop of that city, but then "E" doesn't translate to any German word I can find that stands for "bishop".

Note the provenance chain.

jgenn

This is pretty close: D G POST EPIS HAL D BRVN E LVN P P C (Dei Gratia Postulatus Episcopus Halberstadensis Dux Brunsvicensis Et Luneburgensis Pro Patria Cetera) from Numismatisches Legenden-Lexicon des Mittelalters und der Neuzeit, Volume 1 (Google Books)

EVillageProwler

Oh, crikes!!! I'm a doofus. Why did I look for a German word when I should've been looking for Latin?

Thanks a bunch, jgenn!

EVillageProwler

Originally posted by: Hydrant
It's fabulous. Why is their stuff better than our stuff?

Hello Hydrant,

If the question was directed at me, I'm very sorry but I don't understand. Who are "their" and "our"?

EVP

worldcoinguy

Great tag EVP. I really like the investment in time to write up these tags.

Zohar

EVP - I believe Hydrant is asking why World coins (Their) are better than US material (Our)

EVillageProwler

Originally posted by: Zohar
EVP - I believe Hydrant is asking why World coins (Their) are better than US material (Our)

Still not 100% sure I understand the question... Specifically, what entails "better"?

In terms of collectibility, not better or worse, just different. I find world coins "better" for me, but what I really mean is that they're more suitable for me in terms of interest and budget.

WCG - nothing like a snow-bound day to do stuff inside, including doing nerdy coin stuff.

lordmarcovan

Originally posted by: EVillageProwler

In terms of collectibility, not better or worse, just different. I find world coins "better" for me, but what I really mean is that they're more suitable for me in terms of interest and budget.