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Dr. Maris and the pet names for the 1794 large cents...

RTSRTS Posts: 1,408 ✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Dr. Maris and the pet names for the 1794 large cents – I have a question regarding the reference of
some of the names Dr. Maris assigned to 1794 large cents.

Background: Edward Maris produced a pamphlet in 1869 describing varieties of 1794 large
cents – in the work Dr. Maris assigns names to many of the varieties. Pictured below is a copy of
the 1869 edition from the Kolbe Sale 52 bound by Alan Grace…(not mine)...

image

In the 1869 edition Maris describes 39 varieties of 1794 large cents and most of these the doctor
assigned little names to…for example below are a Sheldon-32 and a Sheldon-57; Maris named
them Venus Marina and Pyramidal Head respectively…

image

Some names are intuitive such as the Fallen 4 Maris # 20 (Sheldon-63)…

image

Some names are sly such the Amatory Face Maris # 26 (Sheldon-30)…funny
that Sheldon says "Maris called her Amiable Face" and not Amatory Face...

image

Now my question…in Early American Cents Sheldon notes that Sheldon-62 is referenced
by Maris as the Trephined Head…

image

…I can understand the Serpent Mouth Sheldon mentioned but the Trephine depression is
a little difficult for me to discern…

image

…in any event: the Sheldon-62 is Hays 49 which according to Chapman The United States Cents
of the Year 1794 translates to Maris # 42 (note: the Hays-Maris table can also be found in the
Kosoff Oscar Pearl Fixed Price List of 1944). The 1869 Maris pamphlet only lists 39 varieties as seen here…

image

…does anyone know the Maris reference where Maris continued his numbering system…I think Maris
continued to number 53…there is a second edition Maris c. 1870 (only 10 copies extant)…would this
contain the additional 14 or so 1794 varieties Maris identified?

please let me know if any errors above in attribution or references - thank you.
image

Comments

  • savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,310 ✭✭✭✭
    interesting, thanks for posting this


    .....was it Maris that first used the term 'apple cheek'?

    www.brunkauctions.com

  • RayboRaybo Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WOW!

    I'll have to come back to this thread later.

    If RTS does not have the answer i'd like to see who does!
  • RTSRTS Posts: 1,408 ✭


    << <i>interesting, thanks for posting this.....was it Maris that first used the term 'apple cheek'? >>



    The Apple Cheek is what Maris called the Scarred Head, Maris # 12 / Sheldon-24. In Early American Cents Sheldon
    says (Sheldon's father) "My father used to call it the Apple Cheek variety." Where the term originally came from I do not know.
    Below is my example, one of my favorite pennies...

    image
    image
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082 ✭
    People routinely give nicknames to objects and other people as a way of making them seem more familiar and as a mnemonic to aid recall. Sometimes these nicknames are obvious attributes of the object/person and sometimes they are so personal and obscure that they escape normal perceptions.

    For a modern example, examine the seemingly endless lists of “variety” names conjured up by Morgan dollar VAMpires. Some are descriptive and others make you wonder what the namer was thinking.

    Some nicknames stick around because they make promotion and hyping of varieties easier for sellers, or are good descriptors; others fade into obscurity including many of Maris’.

    PS: Nice large cents!!
  • mdwoodsmdwoods Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭
    This forum always has something new to offer. Thanks for sharing, great thread.
    National Register Of Big Trees

    We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082 ✭
    Nice “apple cheek” coin! It has always reminded me of a chaw of tobacco in her cheek.

    (A fully struck 1921 Peace dollar has a similar, but smaller bulge – something closer to a “dimple cheek.”)
  • GeminiGemini Posts: 3,085 ✭
    Calling Large Cents "Pennies" really makes my hair stand on end. image

    image
    A thing of beauty is a joy for ever
  • TheRegulatorTheRegulator Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭
    Can't help you on the Maris names, but...

    This is my guess as to the "trephine depression" to which Maris was referring. I did a google image search to get a better idea of what they were talking about and ouch! Poor Miss Liberty!

    imageimage

    I always loved the name Apple Cheeks. Sometimes when I see a cute girl with little chipmunk cheeks, Apple Cheeks comes to mind...
    The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -Thomas Jefferson
  • MoldnutMoldnut Posts: 3,113 ✭✭✭✭
    Liberty Cap Cents, could look at these all day long!image
    Derek

    EAC 6024
  • JedPlanchetJedPlanchet Posts: 908 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Can't help you on the Maris names, but...

    This is my guess as to the "trephine depression" to which Maris was referring. I did a google image search to get a better idea of what they were talking about and ouch! Poor Miss Liberty! >>


    image

    Makes sense to me ... although lucky for her, the hole seems more in her hair than in her head.


    RTS, it's nice to have an interesting question framed in such an aesthetically pleasing way!



    Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,709 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow - the questions are way over my head, but an interesting and impressive thread nonetheless. We need to get Tom Reynolds on this forum. I also might suggest you contact Mark Borchardt at Heritage if you can't get answers here, though no doubt you already know a number of folks through the EAC who could help as well.
    Successful BST transactions with 171 members. Ebeneezer, Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • RTSRTS Posts: 1,408 ✭


    << <i>This is my guess as to the "trephine depression" to which Maris was referring.

    image >>



    Thank you TheRegulator...I'll check the coin in more detail when I get to work this morning.
    image
  • RTSRTS Posts: 1,408 ✭
    Now that TheRegulator has identified the Trephined area for me I thought a better picture could be found from the
    Goldberg archives...here's Lot 99 from the Dan Holmes sale...hopefully we can better see the area in question than
    my coin picture illustrated...

    Maris # 42 the Trephined head...


    image
    image
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Once again RTS you have started a thread that left me smiling.
    You are really on top of your game RTS.
    image
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • TheRegulatorTheRegulator Posts: 1,231 ✭✭✭
    Ugghhh... the more I post, the more I realize how little I know... image

    It's always dumb to try to make comments on die varieties by only looking at one specimen. Looking at the Holmes specimen and contrasting it with the other 1794s you have posted, it looks like I was completely wrong. My latest guess would be that Maris and Sheldon were referring to the area where the cap, pole, and hair all come together. The area looks like it was shallowly engraved (if engraved at all) or perhaps severely polished before it was ever used. The fact that the fifth lock is completely severed would lead me more towards the latter.

    The use of the word "depression" still seems odd to me, as it would have required some sort of protrusion on the working die. On your specimen, I thought I saw what looked like a neat round hole or pit which met the description.

    There. I think I'll quit digging now...
    The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. -Thomas Jefferson
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 13,109 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting discussion. I'm glad theRegulator jumped in.

    "Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working" Pablo Picasso

  • northcoinnorthcoin Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agreed. Sort of reminds me of how astronomers came up with all those crazy names for constellations that only they and connect the dot artists can recognize.
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500 ✭
    the second edition described 43 varieties for cents and 7 for half cents
    (first had 39 and 6)

    only 100 copies printed sold at 25 cents
  • RTSRTS Posts: 1,408 ✭


    << <i>the second edition described 43 varieties for cents and 7 for half cents
    (first had 39 and 6) only 100 copies printed sold at 25 cents >>



    Thank you sinin1...so my Trephined Head was so named in the 2nd edition Maris - I wonder if any reprints/photocopies of the 2nd edition
    are available. Here is a description of the Maris 2 edition from the Kolbe Sale # 100...

    image

    ...now I wonder from which reference Sheldon drew the statement regarding NC-1 "Called by Maris the Crowded Date"[1] since the 2nd edition only goes to Maris 43.
    The Sheldon NC-1 is Hays 30 which I think The Chapman 1794 book translates to Maris # 44.

    [1]Sheldon Early American Cents pg 101.
    image
  • PhotoguyPhotoguy Posts: 118 ✭✭✭
    RTS-
    image


    Same coin above just a better res.
    Numismatic Photographer for Superior/Ira & Larry Goldberg since 1990, Photographer of THE TYRANT COLLECTION one of the greatest collection ever formed.
  • RTSRTS Posts: 1,408 ✭


    << <i>RTS-
    image

    Same coin above just a better res. >>



    Thank you photoguy.
    image

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