Matchbooks?????

BlackberryHill

Did I see correctly...........PSA has added matchbooks to the Pete Rose Master Player Set?

Where does one find matchbooks in the population report?

If this is true, then I for one am inclined to ask PSA to share with collectors the "master list" (if one exists) that identifies for collectors all the "ALTERNATIVES" to "real" baseball cards that PSA will and will not accept into a master set. It is really hard to tell anymore.

It is my personal opinion that "matchbooks" do not belong in a baseball card set.

Am I alone on this issue?

raym8

You are certainly not alone. Matchbooks have absolutely no place in card collection, in my opinion.

But as long as a collector requests it to be added, PSA will add it to the master set. A few months ago somebody requested matchbooks added to the Larry Bird master set, and now I'm forced to have PSA grade them if I want to complete the set. good times.....not.

kdalpan

Isn't matchbooks a hazardous material and should not be sent via the mail? You would have to remove the matches and flatten it out to have it graded right?

In my opinion they should not be included in the master registry.

fiveniner

I do have not any match books at this time but once owned over 100 or so from the 30s. they are very popular with several old school guys like myself but they are almost impossible to find let alone put a set together.When I decided i was not going to be able to build a set or it would take forever i sold them as singles and blew them out quickly.i suppose they could be considered a card just like some of the odd ball stuff and test issues they have come out with in the past. example stamp inserts,comics,folders etc.

tony

KbKards

I just looked in the 2009 Sports Collectors Digest Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards. Right next to the pins, buttons, and coins they list in the SCD guide, and already included in the PSA set registry, they also have matchbooks listed. They're as collectible as cards as pins, buttons, and coins, so why not include them in the registry.

PoppaJ

<< <i>Did I see correctly...........PSA has added matchbooks to the Pete Rose Master Player Set?

Where does one find matchbooks in the population report?

If this is true, then I for one am inclined to ask PSA to share with collectors the "master list" (if one exists) that identifies for collectors all the "ALTERNATIVES" to "real" baseball cards that PSA will and will not accept into a master set. It is really hard to tell anymore.

It is my personal opinion that "matchbooks" do not belong in a baseball card set.

Am I alone on this issue? >>



////////////////////////////////////

Hi Samuel,

Here's the pop report for the 1980 Liberty Superstars Matchbooks that includes Pete Rose and 12 others.

PoppaJ

hoopguru33

Matchbooks were also added to the Larry Bird Master Set. Added were (3) versions of the 1980 Liberty Matchbook (green,orange, salmon). I personally don't feel they belong in the master card set. Raym8 and I have had many discussions on this issue and we are in agreement. Fortunately, I was able to find an example of the (3) matchbooks so I could be closer to finishing the set. My grades were 8, 7.5, and 8. I don't see many getting higher than a PSA 8.

eagles33

how do you even send these in to be graded.. i wouldn't mind getting a match book from the restaurant windows on the world slabbed.. it was on the top floor of the world trade center..

BlackberryHill

Thanks for the list. Really! Now I know.

What concerns me even more is that there are 10 different Pete Rose matchbook variations in the set. That means that PSA will eventually add 10 different variations of the Pete Rose matchbook cover to the Pete Rose Master set.... all matchbook covers. Its hard enough finding variations of baseball cards. How does one go about finding 10 variations of matchbook covers to complete a set? You don't have to answer that. Just venting. I already received a response from C. Robbins telling me that they are included in Becketts and therefore belong in the set. I guess that means that all 10 variations belong in set. No offense to any other collector who may feel differently, but to me that is about as ridiculous as adding a 52 card player card set with every picture of player being exactly alike except for the numbers and pictures on the playing card side. Thanks again for your help.

PoppaJ

The addition of all 10 varieties of the Rose matchbook makes no sense to me. To the best of my knowledge, the only difference of the varieties is color; they're not numbered differently; they all have the same number 8 on them.

In comparison, the different color variations of the Mickey Mantle 1960 Armour Coins were not all added to the Mantle Master Registry Set.

I am almost certain that, if contacted, Cosetta would be more than happy to have 9 of the Rose matchbook varieties removed from the Rose Master Registry Set.

PoppaJ

eagles33

i think its a bit much to include such things in a master set.. it should be cards only. otherwise where will it stop??

BlackberryHill

Thanks for the suggestion. I sent Cosetta Robbins an email requesting that PSA consider only ONE LINE ITEM for any of the color variations that a collector wishes to add. If you feel equally as strongly about this issue please do the same.

BlackberryHill

Received the following response from C. Robbins.............sounds like PSA Set Registry group has already made their mind up on this issue. I am guessing from the tone of this email that there will eventually be ten different color varieties of the matchbook covers in the Pete Rose Master Set and multiple numbers in other player sets as well. So much for trying to complete a set that you thought was within reach.

Per C. Robbins email ............ “ The color varieties are not home-made varieties and are issued by the manufacturer as such. Many of the master player sets contain different color varieties as separate line items, as they are actual varieties. For example, in the Dan Marino master set the 1998 Playoff Pennants football set comes in several different color varieties; blue, gold, green, orange, and each is listed as a separate line item. The Matchbook color varieties will not be an either/or issue in the player sets. “

raym8

Doesn't surprise me at all. If only one matchbook, regardless of color, was part of the set, then collectors will not submit as many of them to PSA for grading. The registry is great, but never lose sight of the fact that it exists purely for profit for PSA. The more items added to a set, regardless of what that item is, the more revenue for PSA as collectors send them in for grading trying to complete the master set. good times.....

PoppaJ

Hi Samuel,

I have since found out that the reason the different color variations of the 1960 Mickey Mantle Armour Coins aren't listed individually is because of the wide variation of value placed on many colors.

The Rose matchbooks, on the other hand, all have the same dollar value.

While PSA does not designate color varieties for the 1960 Armour Coins, they do designate color varieties for the 1980 Matchbooks.

Another reason given by PSA Operations is simply "label size".

While I don't always fully understand the explanations given for such things, I do commend Cosetta's efforts.

FYI: Those Rose matchbooks are not SCARCE. I've seen them on eBay numerous times, both raw and graded. Shouldn't be too tough to nail a few.

Good luck,
PoppaJ

BlackberryHill

Matchbook lovers should be excited. I think. This week PSA added six (for a total of 10 different) color variations of the Pete Rose 1980 Liberty Matchbook Cover. They are all #8 and are all exactly the same (except for different color). I was able to find two ungraded ones on ebay a while back. Now that they are part of the Master Set as a group of ten my guess is that they will be much harder to find, ultimately making it much harder to complete Master sets. Have other players Matchbook covers been added to other players Master sets? Is this another example of what we collectors experienced when multiple variations of stamps and stickers were added, just to entice Master Set collectors to buy more "cards"? Any thoughts?

NickM

Poppa - there's a bigger problem on the Mantle (and everyone else) color variations in Armour coins - telling all of the varieties apart. There isn't just blue; there are several different blues, some of which are much scarcer than others and if you're not familiar with the set, you may not be readily able to tell which variety a particular one is. That would open up a can of worms for PSA.

Nick

Robby

Very interesting topic , and I feel your frustration on having to add 10 different matchbooks which are identical except for the color ! Does anyone have a picture of a matchbook in a Psa slab that they could share , or provide a link to one ? Thank You in advance !
Robby

raym8

Here's one.....

Bird Matchbook

mikeschmidt

with folds and what looks like to be a removed staple, what is exactly the basis for grading, and how does one differentiate between a PSA 10, for example, and a PSA 5?

Trevmo

The staple does not look like it was removed cleanly and it ripped the paper a little bit. I would take that into consideration. I think they should not even be part of the sets. This will eventually get out of hand and nobody will ever be able to complete a players master set. JMO

fkw

Obviously the guys knocking them....dont collect them or are clueless on these sets.

They are cardboard and collectible with hundreds of different kinds.

They are listed in the "American Card Catalog" (ACC), the bible of our hobby.

The Diamond Matchbook sets... U1 thru U3-2 are challenging.

More of a "card" than some M101-2, Topps plastic mask, Armor coin, or Wheaties metal tray

Try to find unused ones (called "flats"), very tough and under appreciated



1934 U1 "silver border" Diamond Match Co.

I also have some 1937 U3-2 matchbooks that are unused too.

raym8

I don't think people are really knocking them. I just think that we are questioning what place a matchbook has in a card set, that's all. And since PSA has already decided that matchbooks do belong in a card collection, at least in terms of the set registry, what purpose does it serve to have the exact same item required for every different color ?

To me, if these Liberty matchbooks are to be part of a master registry set, then it should be a single entry, regardless of the color. To make every color a requirement is just a way for PSA to force collectors to spend money grading an item they would never consider grading if not for the registry. Just my opinion.....

favoritethings

This feels like a reasonable place to bring up a related topic - the decision to exclude the Topps discs from the registry. I was confused, dismayed and angry when the disc was added as an optional item - A dialogue was started with Cosetta: Here is the relevant excerpt from her initial response:

"Gayle Kean and I made the decision about how the card should be added to the
Registry. We have been working on the PSA Registry sets for years and
although we are not experts, we do have a very good idea of what is fair and
what our members expect from us. The card in question has not been assigned
a numeric grade by PSA, nor have any of this issue been graded anything but
authentic by PSA. Furthermore, there has only been 1 Clemente graded at
this time. We would have no problem making this card required once there is
a population, but as it stands now, the card you own is unique.

The Registry is supposed to be a fun place for our members. It is not
supposed to be a financial liability for anyone."

When queried about the fact that there is a disc graded PSA 7 and the precedent of a cards "uniquenes status in a PSA holder" being a reason for exclusion, the following came back:

"From what I can see, we do not require in any of the player sets cards from the sets that PSA does not grade. PSA does not grade any of the 1967 and 1968 Topps Discs issues. However, I am going to research this further and will make a decision next week.

Regarding the 1967 & 1968 Topps Test Disc issues, PSA will only designate these issues as Authentic. The 1967 Topps Test Disc Juan Marichal PSA 7 was graded in error. The 1967 Topps Test Disc will remain in the set as optional. Should a member request the addition of the 1968 Topps Test Disc we will list it as optional as well."


followed by:

"I inquired to PSA Operations the reasoning for grading the1972 Topps Cloth Stickers vs. the 1968 Topps Test Discs as both are test issues; the Topps Cloth issues are a completed item that was never actually issued. The only thing not finished was that they are found in strips so PSA notes they are hand-cut and follows the hand-cut guidelines for grading.
The 1967 (and 1968) Topps Test Discs were a never completed test issue and were probably meant for a pin set but production. That is why PSA holders as Authentic only. "

So I'll tie this together like this - one of the most challenging and sought after topps test issues that PSA will put in an authentic holder, but chooses not to assign a numeric grade to because - I am still a bit confused - A) it is unique, it potentially causes collectors financial hardship, C) Although it exclusively exists as a flat, it is presumed by PSA to have been intended to be a pin issue and is therefore in their opinon "unfinished", is excluded from the master sets, while most anything else under the sun - matchbooks (which if I understand correctly were never intended to be flat - as they would not be "finished" that way) included are perfectly fine additions to the master set? I am sad to say it seems to me that there is an effort to find reasons to support a determination after the fact rather than reconsideration of a detrmination through the use of reason.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

I also want to add - I truly understand the herculean effort it takes to maintain the registry and have a lot of respect and appreciation for BJ, Cosetta and the rest of the registry team.

fkw

1st off...... Im no expert on PSA grading, and that Clemente diecut (R318/V300 like) is one cool card that I really cant say Ive seen before (I collected Topps in the 70's to early 80's, and most of these test issues were unknown to me back then).

If I submitted the "flat" Matchbook (pictured earlier) to a grader I would expect an "Authentic" grade only, mainly because it is not in its issued form. Just like some early "E" candy card blank back proofs that I had graded and came back as expected grade "A"

I think too many people think "Authentic" means it is below a "1" grade. Sometimes a card gets the "A" grade because it is unique and in an unissued form.

I am one of the few oldschool collectors that thought early on the graders/slabbers should just authenticate the cards, and not put a number grade on any of them. They should just note restoration ie. Authentic/Color Added, or Authentic/Trimmed Bottom Edge, etc. But I know many collectors now dont see it that way.

Plus what would we all have to argue about,......... "it looks like a 9, why did I get a 7"


PS I wonder how PSA will grade Matchbooks, most oldschool collectors on vintage matchbooks (Diamond, etc.) removed the matches and staple and thats the way they are usually found/collected now. They will have 3 creases where they folded and some have wax/goop or rust stains on back where the striker staple was.
Can they give a PSA-9 to a matchbook which is not as issued (matches/staple removed)????


1937 U3-2 "Cubs subset" (includes only Cubs players and Waner and Dean)


1935 U2 "black border"

purduepete

<< <i>
PS I wonder how PSA will grade Matchbooks, most oldschool collectors on vintage matchbooks (Diamond, etc.) removed the matches and staple and thats the way they are usually found/collected now. They will have 3 creases where they folded and some have wax/goop or rust stains on back where the striker staple was.
Can they give a PSA-9 to a matchbook which is not as issued (matches/staple removed)????

>>



Good question fkw. Looking at the SGC registry list, there have been a little over 30 matchbooks graded between the different sets. The highest grade given on any of them was a SGC 60 = PSA 5.

I wonder if the fold lines have something to do with the final grades...but then, you would think that the staple holes would render them no better than a SGC 20/PSA 1.

I have these three in for grading right now at SGC - and I'm anxious about the grades they'll receive...

BlackberryHill

Vintage matchbooks , thay are terrific looking and are quite different and unique in my opinion. Hats off to those who have them and collect them. The 1980 Liberty Matchbooks are different. They are not vintage looking, not very old by comparison, sort of boring looking and there is absolutely nothing bdifferent about them as you go from color to color (except for the background color). I think that PSA should list ONE in the Player set and let the collector include in his/her set whichever they prefer.......just like they did with the stickers and stamps that came in multiple combos.