Need a NGC pop for GB 1958 1/2d in PF

ajaan

Anyone a member over there and can get me the population for this coin?

1jester

Don't you own like half the mintage?

ajaan

I wish.

JCMhouston

PF63RB = 2
PF64 RB= 1
PF65RB = 1
PF64 RB Cameo = 1

ajaan

Thanks.

1jester

Did you ever find out the mintage of that series? I think I recall you'd estimated it at around 5?

RobP

I don't have a definitive figure for the whole market, but the evidence appears to be that 1958 is the commonest date for the EII proof halfpennies. We are into double figures on this one.

ajaan

The Royal Mint told me 5-15 but they didn't have any official record. I'm guessing 20 or so but that is only a guess on my part. I know of 5 of them. Two I own, one in the Nicholson collection, one for sale by Colin Cooke, and one that sold on eBay years ago. If anyone else has one I would really appreciate letting me know.

7Jaguars

Rarity is very hard to judge on these, and in fact to the best of my knowledge the Royal Mint did NOT keep mintage statistics. There are very many interesting stories and anecdotes about people with "insider" connections able to get many odd bits.

Another huge problem is dispersion as evidently some were able to obtain packets of these, and it may be that 1958 1/2ds fall in this category. They are also in my experience the most common of the E2 issues. If you were to ask me to rate these proof half pence I would have some difficulty.

Note that in the recent Colin Cooke farthing auction the 1956 farthing in proof went for 1550 pounds plus the juice, and that coin is evidently more scarce than prior years but again no records available.

RobP

<< <i>PF63RB = 2
PF64 RB= 1
PF65RB = 1
PF64 RB Cameo = 1 >>



Can we deduce any approximate dates for submission for these based on reference numbers, any images available or any indication that there are resubmissions to muddy the water.

7Jaguars

This I can not help on, but I would suggest that these are but a small representation of the extant examples and that quite a few others may be available UNSLABBED in the UK. I would hope that these are not being resubmitted for micro-grade adjustments as they would not seem to have sufficient value for that sort of enterprise (IMO obviously).

JCMhouston

No deductions can be made, you would have to have the cert numbers then you could look at the coins, assuming they have been submitted recently.

ajaan

One PF63 and the PF64 belong to me. They both were purchased already in the NGC holders.

RobP

<< <i>One PF63 and the PF64 belong to me. They both were purchased already in the NGC holders. >>


Dates and any recorded provenances? I see the 63 is ex Rupp. When was the sale? An image of the other would be useful too.

ajaan

Rupp is me. My collection. No sale. Here is an image of the other one:




Both coins were purchased in early 2004. I have no idea when they were originally slabbed. I had them reslabbed with my name on them.

RobP

<< <i>Rupp is me. My collection. No sale. Here is an image of the other one:


Both coins were purchased in early 2004. I have no idea when they were originally slabbed. I had them reslabbed with my name on them. >>



And both coins came back with exactly the same designated grade? If there was a difference in the 64 it could count as 2 separate coins, and if so would mess the numbers up a bit.

OK, lets put a bit of meat on the bones of this thread. I haven't done a comprehensive survey for this date as I have only noted that it is much commoner than Freeman's R19 rating, but a cursory glance at a few dozen catalogues over the past couple of hours has given the list below. Unfortunately I don't have time to plough through all the catalogues at my disposal back to 1958!

1. BM
2. J Tansley 414, DNW 67 28/9/05
RJP
3. B Nicholson 545
C Cooke list October 2009
4. Parry Collection - Rasmussen 9/C141 (Spring 2006)
LCA 117/1135 3/6/07
5. EMH Norweb 1162 pt, Spink 56
6. LCA124/629 1/3/09
7. Rupp Colln no.1 (2004) slabbed NGC PF63RB
8. Rupp Colln no.2 (2004) slabbed NGC PF64RB

Plus 3 others(?) slabbed by NGC

Number 2 is mine, the Nicholson piece and that on the Cooke website appear to be the same coin if you look carefully (the reverse is better for this), number 4 didn't sell off Mark Rasmussen's list at £295 but then made £550 hammer in the London Coins sale a few months later!!!, Norweb's was part of a set but unhelpfully not illustrated and so could potentially be any apart from no.1. I assume the Royal Mint also has an example. I don't remember the one on eBay, so can't say if it is one of those on the list.

A conversation with a reliable source also raised an interesting point. While discussing 1958 proof halfpennies, he mentioned that a customer told him he obtained his 1958 halfpenny on a visit to the mint with a group from school. Apparently they were each given one, but there was no indication of the party's size. It could have been 3 or 4 or a bus load. I have no reason to disbelieve this although it is obviously heresay. It would however make sense in relation to the apparent comparitive rarity of halfpennies and threepences. The latter do not appear to show up as often as the halfpennies suggesting they were part of complete sets. There were no pennies to consider, so complete sets would only have 1/2d, 3d, 6d, 1/-E, 1/-S, 2/- & 2/6d.

I would have thought a figure between one and two dozen was a reasonable starting point, but you also have to bear in mind that 1958 was only 50 years ago and so any recipient may well still be alive and holding on to his/her momento.

ajaan

Great information!

<< <i>Plus 3 others(?) slabbed by NGC >>

two of the three NGC coins are mine, the third one I know of is the eBay coin of years gone by.





<< <i>And both coins came back with exactly the same designated grade? If there was a difference in the 64 it could count as 2 separate coins, and if so would mess the numbers up a bit. >>


I had the coins reholdered, not regraded, so the population report wouldn't reflect the reholdered coins.

I was debating if the current coin on Cooke's site is the Nicholson example. I would like other's opinions on this. At first I thought it was, then thought it wasn't.

RobP

<< <i>Great information!

<< <i>Plus 3 others(?) slabbed by NGC >>

two of the three NGC coins are mine, the third one I know of is the eBay coin of years gone by.





<< <i>And both coins came back with exactly the same designated grade? If there was a difference in the 64 it could count as 2 separate coins, and if so would mess the numbers up a bit. >>


I had the coins reholdered, not regraded, so the population report wouldn't reflect the reholdered coins.

I was debating if the current coin on Cooke's site is the Nicholson example. I would like other's opinions on this. At first I thought it was, then thought it wasn't. >>



Your two are on the list. The other 3 are appended to the end with the query as we don't know for certain there are 3 others, only that your submission didn't change the numbers.

The Nicholson and that on CC at the moment are the same piece. Compare the limits of the toning under the bust and the marks by the ties on the obverse, and the ding by Y and the toning streak between P & E on the reverse.

ajaan

Ah, I see what you mean.

7Jaguars

RobP - very impressive research. You have some skills there. However, I will say that places like the infamous Baldwin's basement could easily have 12 or 20 more on a shelf; I have declined this coin several times but of course can not state with certainty if these were coins on the pedigree list you have given us. Thanks for your efforts!

Please PM me if you are able to run down other VIP record proofs with similar detail.

RobP

<< <i>RobP - very impressive research. You have some skills there. However, I will say that places like the infamous Baldwin's basement could easily have 12 or 20 more on a shelf; I have declined this coin several times but of course can not state with certainty if these were coins on the pedigree list you have given us. Thanks for your efforts!

Please PM me if you are able to run down other VIP record proofs with similar detail. >>


Thank you.

For once I don't think that Baldwins basement is responsible for anything (there's a first!). There were no examples in any of the Gregory sales and none have appeared on their website. I know there are a lot of instances I have missed, but the problem is the quantity of material I would have to sift through to extract the data. I have somewhere between 1500 and two thousand catalogues going back to 1958, but even that is nowhere near complete. That's a lot of spadework. I'll see what I can come up with for other dates, but can say with certainty that the war years are well nigh impossible to obtain although a couple KGVI's are a bit easier, ignoring the proof set years.

7Jaguars

Yes, very interesting. I will note that ANA let go their collection of Spink auction catalogs and have been able to look at quite a few of them. Gregory sales did not seem to deplete the Baldwin complement by much, so wonder what remains (as do many others).

Do you believe that there were only two 1956 proof farthings available to the public, or that the 1952 shillings in proof are limited only to the Norweb/NGC coin? Have you ever heard of any proof 1929 proof silver coins other than the crown outside BM or Royal Mint collections?


Ooops, not trying to pirate this thread or to distract from the very nice 1958 halfpenny in question.

RobP

<< <i>Yes, very interesting. I will note that ANA let go their collection of Spink auction catalogs and have been able to look at quite a few of them. Gregory sales did not seem to deplete the Baldwin complement by much, so wonder what remains (as do many others).

Do you believe that there were only two 1956 proof farthings available to the public, or that the 1952 shillings in proof are limited only to the Norweb/NGC coin? Have you ever heard of any proof 1929 proof silver coins other than the crown outside BM or Royal Mint collections?


Ooops, not trying to pirate this thread or to distract from the very nice 1958 halfpenny in question. >>



Re the 1956 farthing, that's a load of b******s. There was a set in Norweb (lot 1165) and a different set in the Circular for Dec.2003 (MS5784). That's just the first two instances that came to mind. Neither were the piece that sold recently for £1550. The Dec.2003 Circular also had a single 3d and 1/2d in addition to the set mentioned, so that should be 3 sets without thinking very hard. The same issue had a selection of other VIP's.

1952 is a different matter. That is a definite maybe.

I have not found any 1929 proof silver to date, but that doesn't mean anything. The bronze exists because I have a 1/2d and there was a 1d in Adams (both ex-Norweb) but we don't appear to be over-run with them. The silver will be out there somewhere (Baldwin's basement).

7Jaguars

Yes, even without the extensive library I have tracked many of these bits and have never seen silver proof 1929 3d - 2/6 but know of two definite proof Wreaths of this date. BTW and IMO, many Wreaths advertised as proof or even certified as such (other than the 1927) are in fact not proof even given the slack standards for proof production of the time.

RobP

<< <i>many Wreaths advertised as proof or even certified as such (other than the 1927) are in fact not proof even given the slack standards for proof production of the time. >>


Agreed