Now A Question For 19Lyds.....
wondercoin
Posts: 16,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
1971-S Ike Dollar Proofs...
Why did PCGS select the (2) specific DDO's they chose (FS103 & FS106)? Do you know the history behind each selection?? Have you seen even stronger DDO's than these (2) that PCGS is not recognizing?
I pulled a DDO from this date that I believe is even stronger than FS-106. So, will PCGS only recognize it (a year or two from now) after the Cherrypickers' book separately lists it out?
Lee - What are your thoughts on this? We have 59 different MN tree coins recognized by PCGS already. Why only -2- 1971-S proof Ikes when there are a few others that are equally as strong?
Thanks for responding. I welcome a reply from Roger as well.
Wondercoin
Why did PCGS select the (2) specific DDO's they chose (FS103 & FS106)? Do you know the history behind each selection?? Have you seen even stronger DDO's than these (2) that PCGS is not recognizing?
I pulled a DDO from this date that I believe is even stronger than FS-106. So, will PCGS only recognize it (a year or two from now) after the Cherrypickers' book separately lists it out?
Lee - What are your thoughts on this? We have 59 different MN tree coins recognized by PCGS already. Why only -2- 1971-S proof Ikes when there are a few others that are equally as strong?
Thanks for responding. I welcome a reply from Roger as well.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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Comments
The answer is plain and simple on why those two.
If it was not in the Cherrypickers' Guide it was not selected.
V/R
Sumdunce
And, by the way, thank you for responding and anyone else fell free as well. I asked 19Lyds because of his fabulous Ike variety set.
Wondercoin
I do not understand the disparity either.
V/R
Sumdunce
Edited to add "not" which when missing made the second sentence unreadable.
I do not think PCGS will designate all those MN quarters anymore
and all those Lincoln cent variations
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Wondercoin
<< <i>Why only -2- 1971-S proof Ikes >>
IKE'S are the "RED-HEADED STEP CHILD" of Numismatics. The Rodney Dangerfield of coin collecting,,,,,,,
"We don't get no respect"
GrandAm
They are Cherry Pickers Book varieties.
PCGS seems to make that a part of the criteria.
Lee and I discussed this some time in the past......
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
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Jim: Does the Cherrypickers list out (59) different MN tree coins?
Wondercoin
<< <i>"PCGS seems to make that a part of the criteria."
Jim: Does the Cherrypickers list out (59) different MN tree coins?
Wondercoin >>
No.
In fact the last Quarters listed are the 2004 Wisconsin High/Low Leafs.
The 2005 Quarters are not even listed..... Interesting.
I have the 4th edition of Volume II [Whitman Publishing; 4th edition (August 30, 2006)]
This is the current Volume II book for sale on the whiman books website.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
Can you imagine building a complete Cherrypickers Wash quarter set (a lifetime project to begin with of 400+ coins) and then seeing 59 more coins from a single issue not even in the Cherrypickers guide!
Had me thinking about these neat DDO proof Ikes we found and why they are not required coins anywhere.
And, you thought the Pres $1 varieties were tough to complete
Wondercoin
At least with the Presidential Dollars we know the variety types and what they are!
We just have to look for them with each new issue.
We do not have 59 varieties of Weak Edges for One YEAR !
I had some other IKE's that I sent in but they came back as a "minor variety", not part of the registry set.
OK, So when does the "Formative Years" Lincoln Cent varieties become part of the complete registry set?
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
The Ike Group is proposing a fresh approach to Ike DD's based on cataloging those with Loupe-visible doubling where the doubling is distinctive enough to serve as the "marker" for that die and/or there are die markers (a deep scratch, for example) that are distinct through most die states and therefore can serve to identify the particular DD with reasonable certainty.
We envision somewhere between 20 and 50 Ike DD's will meet these criteria, mostly from '71 and '72. We're building our Ike DD catalog on the internet with the participation of all who are interested and willing to contribute.
Won't happen over night but along the way we'll be showing off the obvious early candidates (like the remarkable DDO-004/DDR-021) and should have at least a dozen ready to go by the time we publish the First Edition of our Ike book in the Spring of 2010. Rob
IKE GROUP web site Go to the FORUM and drop down to the large section on Ike DD's.
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>like the remarkable DDO-004/DDR-021 >>
The 4/21 according to The Authoritative Reference on Eisenhower Dollars? I believe I may have a few of those.
V/R
Sumdunce
I love the 4/21 as it's a naked eye cherry for me (granted, I'm near-sighted), thanks to the "pillow" of elevated field on which the obverse bust rests (the product of clash-repair abrading carefully polished over) and the crisp doubling of the Eagle's lower eyelid on the reverse.
Under a loupe there's a lot of doubling visible and under a scope both sides are spectacular examples of Class I Rotated Hub Doubling, meaning the doubling wraps completely around.
The 4/21 is high on the Ike Group's list of collectible Ike DD's.
The DDO-004 is also virtually identical to the DDO-022: only problem is the 22 is a peg leg proof and the 4 is a serif-R silver specimen business strike and also has the expected coarser and somewhat different hair details of all silver business strikes compared to the proofs. From this strange circumstance we have much to learn if/when we can get to the bottom of it. . .
These two Ike DDO's at first blush are the most compelling counters to our position that the peg leg 71-S Ike proofs are by Design and not due to post-design die or master die accidental "overpolishing" as one Mint spokesperson put it in '72 trying to account for the two different 71-S Ike proof designs.
Using "Classical" hubbing to explain all this just doesn't work, at least we have not been able to make ends meet, so to speak.
Since we love throwing out exploratory concepts, however ("mud on the wall"), we're looking hard at retrograde hubbing as a missing link in this puzzle. . .
Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
1. Do you know why PCGS specifically selected the (2) DDO's they chose (FS103 & FS106) and only these (2)?
2. Have you seen even stronger 1971 Proof DDO's than these (2) that PCGS is recognizing? Which die numbers would they be if one was going to ask PCGS to also recognize them? Can you email me scans of the equally strong doubled dies if they are not listed by doubled die number if I get an opportunity to present the pics to PCGS for consideration.
Wondercoin
"PCGS may be using the CPG as its sole Ike DD guide because the two accepted attributors (Wiles and Wexler, et al) have separate catalogs with different catalog numbers and in some cases differing cataloged DD's. Also, since the late 1990's there has been growing uncertainty about the extent to which Master Die doubling should re-define Ike DD catalogs: Brian Allen recently published in "THE HUB" the preliminary results of his research which suggests there are only a handful of distinctly different silver Ike '71 DD's."
PCGS is in a difficult position! Take the 004/021 - does PCGS use Wexler's catalog number (DDO-004/DDR-021), or do they use Wiles' catalog number for the obverse, DDO-007, and DDR-002 for the reverse and the die marriage as UVC 22 DMR 17???
Then along come Fivaz and Stanton with four Ike Proofs they chose for inclusion in their CPG, two from '71, Wexler's DDO-022 and DDO-008 (two of the "biggest" 71-S Ike Proof DD's); and, the less memorable '72-S Silver Proof Wexler DDO-009 and '73-S Wexler DDO-004.
By going with the CPG, PCGS side-stepped the confusion of two separate and different Wiles-Wexler catalogs.
The IKE GROUP believes it is up to us to build a transparent catalog of Ike DD's that is collector friendly and easily used by TPG's. We will eventually publish on our own website a complete photographic account of each DD we chose to call "Collectible" (along with a summary of each DD's important features in our Ike Book.
That process will take us about 2 years. Meanwhile, our early efforts are available for all to see on our web site. For example, here is our 4/21 discussion:
IKE GROUP THREADS ON THE 71-S IKE DDO-004/DDR-021
At this point, collectors might stand more to gain by asking PCGS to attributute the 71-D FEV and perhaps a few other Ike Varieties we have documented in peer-accepted articles in Numismatist and ErrorScope? Until the a solid catalog is published on the Ike DD's, I'm afraid PCGS won't budge from simpifying their job by using the CPG as their Ike attribution gateway.
Of course, one can always hope that the next edition of the CPG will have the FEV and a few more DD's . . .
Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
But, I am still curious about these very strong 71-S Proof DDO's I found (which are not 103/106). I'll try to get some scans up next week for you to take a look at.
Wondercoin
I think the answer lies in Rob and the IKE group getting the easier guide completed
&
CPG to include the FEV IKE and others in the next publication as well.
( This will double our odds! )
Mitch, so we still don't know why they picked 103 & 106 exclusively.
It's a PCGS thing. They just want to keep us guessing!
As for the (59) different MN tree quarter varieties.
That one is an even bigger mystery as to why they are in the registry.
Have you personally asked them?
I want the "Flaming Eagle" Sacagawea to be included as well.
But...We just don't always get what we want.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
I am trying to sort it all out. As you know, that generally takes time. Luckily, for us, BJ is a "rock star" at getting to the bottom of things.
Wondercoin
I'm sure, given time, PCGS will sort if all out as you're right Mitch, as it stands right now, today, it doesn't make much sense.
<< <i>Why did PCGS select the (2) specific DDO's they chose (FS103 & FS106)? >>
Since the FS-103 and FS-106 are listed in the CPG and PCGS will attribute them, I expect that these two were included in the registry solely because of that fact. Come to think of it, every Eisenhower listed in the CPG is a "required" coin for a Complete Eisenhower Variety Set both Proof and Business Strike.
<< <i>Do you know the history behind each selection?? >>
No but given the reply to your first question above it makes sense that each of the selected varieites be included in the Complete Variety Sets.
<< <i>Have you seen even stronger DDO's than these (2) that PCGS is not recognizing? >>
No. I do have a very nice DDR though that PCGS would not attribute. Why? Simple! Because its not in the CPG.
<< <i>I pulled a DDO from this date that I believe is even stronger than FS-106. So, will PCGS only recognize it (a year or two from now) after the Cherrypickers' book separately lists it out? >>
Pictures would be appreciated but as for PCGS attributing it, that just will not happen until a new CPG is published AND your coin is in it.
<< <i>Lee - What are your thoughts on this? We have 59 different MN tree coins recognized by PCGS already. Why only -2- 1971-S proof Ikes when there are a few others that are equally as strong? >>
The determining factor for PCGS to attribute any Eisenhower Dollar is that it must be in the Cherry Pickers Guide. End of Story.
PCGS initially attributed the MN Tree Quarters because they were hugely popular and many folks were paying serious money for them. PCGS is a Coin Dealer's Company and Coin Dealers are motivated by Collector wants so it only stands to reason that PCGS would attributed the MN coins since weekly updates were occuring in both Numismatic News and Coin world on a Weekly Basis! The fever was high and PCGS was making money on the attributions.
As for including the MN Tree Quarters in the Complete State Quarters Variety Set? I have no idea. Its PCGS's shop and they can run it as they choose.
Folks must remember that PCGS is a coin grading company and not a coin attribution company. If a certain coin is readily identifiable and collector interest is high, then PCGS will utilize available resources to attribute those coins but accurate documentation really needs to be available. I think that the MN Tree quarters is THE primary reason that PCGS will NOT be attributing the Lincoln DDR coins since little documentation is available.
My opinion regarding the IKE Varieties, both DDO/DDR and RPM's is that there are a bunch of them out there. Some major's and some really minor's. A collector must really be motivated to collect an example of each one but that motivation should not be registry set or PCGS attribution driven. In other words, collect them for the simple joy of it.
Mitch, since you are one of PCGS's Modern Experts, I would expect your word to have much more influence with PCGS than us peons.
The name is LEE!
I will try to post a few scans next week. Would love to see your PCGS DDO's as well.
Wondercoin
1971-S FS-103
1971-S FS-106
1972-S FS-101
1973-S FS-101
The name is LEE!
Wondercoin
<< <i>Lee (or anyone): What would you suggest to be the best method to photograph the doubling areas of our coins already in the PCGS holders? Excellent photos by the way!
Wondercoin >>
I use my stereo microscope with an Ott light off to the side and shoot drectly through the eyepiece. Generally speaking, I'll prop the slab up using the blue IKE Silver Business strike poker chips until I get the best angle to display the doubling. The entire setup is on a mouse pad which I move back and forth photographing each area of the coin.
Then I upload and crop the shots on my workstation using MicroSoft Picture Manager which is stock on most windows operating systems.
Some folks use those mini cameras (Dino-Lites) but you cannot really control the light source. Besides, I am too heavily invested in my Sony digital to justify or afford a DinoLite.
I try to align the coins all the same to make visual comparisons easier.
You might want to send it out to Rob Ezerman for photographing since he has a really nice setup. Contact Rob through either PM (ModernDollarNut) or off of the IKE GROUP web page.
The name is LEE!
I really have nothing to say that would not be repeating what was already said.
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
By dispelling much of the mistique and mystery of DD's in hand and under magnification, he made the topic fun for me and that's a magnificent gift.
Now I realize that Ike DD's are the next wave of low hanging fruit, waiting only for the IKE GROUP to make them understandable and fun. That I intend to do in our book.
Meanwhile, if there is anything I can do for you in the way of shooting Ikes, please just let me know. I'm hardly the only coin guy who can take acceptable pictures but I do know my Ike non-DD Varieties and am rapidly gaining comfort with the Ike DD's, though I lack the encydlopedic knowledge of Thomas and make NO CLAIM I can attribute (let alone authenticate) Ike DD's, especially since some of both Wiles' and Wexler's Ike DD's are a bit fuzzy. In time the IKE GROUP will be able to attribute our chosen Collectible Ike DD's because we will have constructed a thorough web-based photographic database on which their attribution will rest. Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
Wondercoin
Rob
Questions about Ikes? Go to The IKE GROUP WEB SITE
<< <i>I believe that all of them are on the IKEGROUP web page.
1971-S FS-103
1971-S FS-106
1972-S FS-101
1973-S FS-101 >>
On at least some of these DDO's (I don't recall exactly which), the CPG states that there is no corresponding Coneca number.
Is that true? How can this be? That DDO's deemed significant enuf to be included in the CPG are not even cataloged by CONECA??
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
However, James book CONECA Attribution Guide to Eisenhower Dollar Varieties does have corresponding CONECA numbers.
1971-S FS-103 = DDO-008 = DDO-003 PR-3-O-V-CW from K-2 FS-$1-1971S-103 (15.8)
1971-S FS-106 = DDO-022 = DDO-006 PR-6-O-I-CCW; FS-$1-1971S-106
1972-2 FS-101 = DDO-009 = DDO-001 PR-1-O-II-C (4) ( I Think)
I am also not really sure about the 1973-S
There is a lot of controvery regarding Eisenhower Dollar DDO/DDR coins because there are so many which appear to be duplicated across varieties. (i.e. appear on silver proofs and silver business strikes)
One area of concern is the DDO-006 and DDO-004 which appear to be identical in doubling on the motto, but that danged pegleg R on the proof and non-pegleg R on the business strike has stirred some discussion.
The name is LEE!