Need attribution help with 1838 Half Dime

CaptHenway

Just bought in an 1838 Half Dime from what appears to be the obverse of V-3, with repunched first star, rim cuds at lower right and a defect in the right field, that does not seem to have the reverse of 1837 listed in Valentine and Blythe.

My colleague will post pictures in a few minutes.

Thank you.

TD

Greeniejr

Here are the pictures

Cladiator

MrHalfDime

It is not likely that I will be able to attribute any half dime that Tom DeLorey could not, but I saw Cladiator's beacon and decided I would give it a try.

Dr. Valentine does mention, in his description of his 1838 V3, the reverse die used in the previous year on his V2 die marriage, but he hedges a bit when he says "Die similar to 1837 No. 2", allowing for the possibility that it is not the same die. The chief diagnostic for the 1837 V2 reverse die, as Tom correctly points out, is the 'notched' tip of the innermost leaf under the D of DIME, which this 1838 half dime decidedly does not have.

After careful study of your coin, and comparison with examples in my reference collection, I would submit that your coin is an example of the 1838 V8, for which Dr. Valentine writes:

Obv: Die of No. 6. (The 1st, 3rd, and 8th stars defective. Lowest left star not low but close).

Rev: Similar, but die cracks at M and I of AMERICA.

From your pictures, we can see the die crack on the reverse, from the rim to the left upright of the M in AMERICA, although the die crack from the rim to the top right of I in AMERICA is not really visible. On one of my examples of the V8, both die cracks are strong and visible, and the obverse rim cuds are slightly more extensive than on your example (from K3 to K7). This would suggest that your example is a slightly earlier die state than my own.

Are the dies on your example slightly rotated? On my examples of the 1838 V8, the reverse die is rotated approximately 15° to 20° CW relative to the obverse.

I hope this helps.

LoveMyLiberty

You may have a V-8.

Questions:

Is there a die crack on rev. from rim to M? From rim to F?
Star 1 is recut. Are stars 3 & 8 also?

MrHalfDime

We have another opinion, and confirmation of the V8 attribution. However, I just noticed the die crack on the obverse of TD's coin, from the rim into the field between stars 12 and 13 (in the enlargement). Daniel W. Valentine's description of the V8 does not mention this die crack, nor do I have that die crack on any of my examples of the V8. The Valentine V12 has a die crack from the rim through star 13, but not between star 12 and 13. If TD's coin is an earlier die state than my own example of the V8, then it should not exhibit a die crack that mine does not. Unless, of course, we have a re-marriage here. Hmmmmm......

CaptHenway

<< <i>It is not likely that I will be able to attribute any half dime that Tom DeLorey could not, but I saw Cladiator's beacon and decided I would give it a try.

Dr. Valentine does mention, in his description of his 1838 V3, the reverse die used in the previous year on his V2 die marriage, but he hedges a bit when he says "Die similar to 1837 No. 2", allowing for the possibility that it is not the same die. The chief diagnostic for the 1837 V2 reverse die, as Tom correctly points out, is the 'notched' tip of the innermost leaf under the D of DIME, which this 1838 half dime decidedly does not have.

After careful study of your coin, and comparison with examples in my reference collection, I would submit that your coin is an example of the 1838 V8, for which Dr. Valentine writes:

Obv: Die of No. 6. (The 1st, 3rd, and 8th stars defective. Lowest left star not low but close).

Rev: Similar, but die cracks at M and I of AMERICA.

From your pictures, we can see the die crack on the reverse, from the rim to the left upright of the M in AMERICA, although the die crack from the rim to the top right of I in AMERICA is not really visible. On one of my examples of the V8, both die cracks are strong and visible, and the obverse rim cuds are slightly more extensive than on your example (from K3 to K7). This would suggest that your example is a slightly earlier die state than my own.

Are the dies on your example slightly rotated? On my examples of the 1838 V8, the reverse die is rotated approximately 15° to 20° CW relative to the obverse.

I hope this helps. >>



It does have the faint die crack along the left side of the M. There is no die crack on the I.

Die alignment is perfect.

Star one is recut, but I see no defects on stars three or eight.

I do see the defect in the right field that you can see in Valentines plate for V-3. It is immediately to the right of the indent under the elbow. It appears to be a clash mark from the leaf immediately after the E of DIME. (Does not show in our photo).

How exact is the rim cudding under the date? Does your show a series of bulges in the cudding, one under the left side of the first 8, one directly under the 3, and one directly under the second 8?

Does yours show the die crack above star 13, starting at the rim above the left side of the 13th star but curving upwards towards the 12th star?

Thank you for your help.

Tom

CaptHenway

<< <i>We have another opinion, and confirmation of the V8 attribution. However, I just noticed the die crack on the obverse of TD's coin, from the rim into the field between stars 12 and 13 (in the enlargement). Daniel W. Valentine's description of the V8 does not mention this die crack, nor do I have that die crack on any of my examples of the V8. The Valentine V12 has a die crack from the rim through star 13, but not between star 12 and 13. If TD's coin is an earlier die state than my own example of the V8, then it should not exhibit a die crack that mine does not. Unless, of course, we have a re-marriage here. Hmmmmm...... >>



Was typing my response when this ran, and did not see it until after I posted.
TD

CaptHenway

ttt
Anybody else have an 1838 V-3 or V-8 to compare to the pictures?
Thanks,
TD

CaptHenway

one more ttt
need help, please.

MrHalfDime

I want to revisit Tom DeLorey’s 1838 half dime question, partly because attributions like this intrigue me and I hate to leave them unresolved, but mostly because I think I may have misled us yesterday with one of my comments or observations.

In my comments yesterday, after looking at TD’s images of his 1838 half dime, I stated:

“The chief diagnostic for the 1837 V2 reverse die, as Tom correctly points out, is the 'notched' tip of the innermost leaf under the D of DIME, which this 1838 half dime decidedly does not have.”

I now believe this to be incorrect. In my reference collection of Liberty Seated half dimes, I presently do not have any examples of the 1838 V3 to use for comparison, but I do have several examples of the 1837 V2. I took a close look at the reverse die of the 1837 V2, at the ‘notched’ leaf under D, and I am seeing the very same ‘notched’ leaf on TD’s coin, particularly in the enlargement of this area in his photos. Look closely at the enlargement of the leaves, specifically the innermost leaf, under the D of DIME, and you will see the ‘notch’. It runs horizontally, severing the tip of the leaf, leaving it completely separated in the field. It appears as a tiny raised triangle in the field, directly above the leaf. This is precisely the same as seen on the 1837 V2 reverse die.

This means that the reverse die of TD's coin agrees with the Valentine description of his V3, which reads:

Rev: Die similar to 1837 No. 2, showing nicked leaf, but there is a flaw in background under TES in STATES, and through OF.

The flaw under TES mentioned above is readily seen on TD’s coin, and is a clash mark from the base of the rock on the obverse die.

Tom has already stated that the obverse of his coin also appears to match the Valentine V3 description:

Obv: Lowest left star close, and defective. Broken die at rim on lower right. There is a flaw in middle of right field.

Thus, I would attribute TD’s coin as an example of the V3. To be sure, TD’s coin does exhibit the die crack from the rim to the top of M1 (M of AMERICA), which Valentine does not mention, but this can easily be explained if we consider TD’s coin to be a slightly later die state that the Valentine plate coin. I mentioned yesterday that I have an example of the Valentine V8 which has the same die crack at M1, plus another at I1 (which also led to my missed attribution). I now believe that the reverse die used on Valentine’s V3 was later used on his V8, which he does not mention.

So, my apologies to those who followed my somewhat flawed attribution of yesterday, but I do now believe this coin to be a Valentine V3.

DoubleEagle59

that sure is one high grade half dime you got there.

CaptHenway

Here is a picture, thanks to Heritage, of an 1837 V-2 with the so-called "notched" or "nicked" leaf tip under the D of DIME. I would not have used those terms, but Mr. Valentine was writing a long time ago, and the language changes over time.

link

The extra metal appears to be much larger than the possible extra metal on my coin. It is possible that the die was lapped befoe being pressed into use in 1838.

I do not see the recutting on the first T in STATES or the first A in AMERICA that Valentine listed for 1837 V-2, but he may have been mistaken, or may have seen a machine doubled specimen.

I will tentatively accept this as a V-3 for now, thanks to Mr. Half DIme, but would love to see another V-3 for comparison. Heritage has only one listed, with no picture. Must be a rare variety.

Does anybody have an 1838 V-3 for comparison?

Thanks,

TD

CaptHenway

Does anybody have a PICTURE of an 1838 V-3, or a reference to a catalogue with a good picture?
Thanks,
TD

CaptHenway

In case anybody was wondering, PCGS graded it as MS-64.
TD