<< <i>thanks for the "interesting first post comment"...I've read this site for a while now but felt like posting since I often buy online.
Forgive me but your evidence of 'shill' bidding is still lacking. The buyers you note have a very high percentage of bid activity with GSC and some only have 1 or 2 bids. Point being, when i first started buying coins through ebay i bought from multiple buyers and had various negative experiences but when dealing with GSC it was the opposite so I stuck with them. Now I would say that over 95% of the coins I buy online come from GSC. Many times I'm traveling or in and out of the office so I dont get to actively pursue certain coins like I'd like and the best I can do is get one or two bids in at a time. Sometimes i will do a max reserve bid and let it ride. With that said, you might look at my account and think I'm some how a shill bidder when I've just turned into a loyal customer and bid on the coins I like whether that means 1 bid to take a stab at it or 10 back and forth bids when I have the time. I'm sorry but it really just sounds like you're bitter competitors who aren't even close to the same class as GSC and dont have the type of loyal customers such as myself. At best its pure speculation and a humdrum attempt at that. I'm sorry but these guys have provided me with the best service and I've got coins to prove it. >>
GSC Alt? Inquiring minds want to know... >>
My thoughts exactly.
In a 20 year old example but not unlikethis , my father bought heavily from a "newsletter" dealer for ten years to assemble in IHC collection before the internet, until he had an almost complete set of "Mint State" coins. I had to break it to him gently this year that all of the coins he bought were severely cleaned, mainly because he asked me to help finish his collection and I was worried he would think I was crazy for stearing him to realistically priced coins. Big pill for me, big pill for him, but it hightlights the fact that many collectors and even avid ones have absolutely no idea how to look at a coin to determine originality.
<< <i>thanks for the "interesting first post comment"...I've read this site for a while now but felt like posting since I often buy online.
Forgive me but your evidence of 'shill' bidding is still lacking. The buyers you note have a very high percentage of bid activity with GSC and some only have 1 or 2 bids. Point being, when i first started buying coins through ebay i bought from multiple buyers and had various negative experiences but when dealing with GSC it was the opposite so I stuck with them. Now I would say that over 95% of the coins I buy online come from GSC. Many times I'm traveling or in and out of the office so I dont get to actively pursue certain coins like I'd like and the best I can do is get one or two bids in at a time. Sometimes i will do a max reserve bid and let it ride. With that said, you might look at my account and think I'm some how a shill bidder when I've just turned into a loyal customer and bid on the coins I like whether that means 1 bid to take a stab at it or 10 back and forth bids when I have the time. I'm sorry but it really just sounds like you're bitter competitors who aren't even close to the same class as GSC and dont have the type of loyal customers such as myself. At best its pure speculation and a humdrum attempt at that. I'm sorry but these guys have provided me with the best service and I've got coins to prove it. >>
Just had to register here and speak up on behalf of GSC huh? I guess if they use shill bidders, a shill poster shouldnt surprise me!
<< <i>it appears to me that the two pics above are the same coin. i would bet on that. >>
If you are talking about the 2 photos of the 1866 half, I would bet you're wrong. >>
1. obverse, right leg, below the knee cap. small darker mark. 2. reverse, on rim by N in UNITED, small slashing cut into rim. possibly on all proofs of that year? 3. reverse, bottom of the banner left hand side, banner bottom has a very similar toning look. 4. obverse, liberty's chest, that toning spot. very faint on one pic, very bold on the second. 5. obverse, 5th star counting from left, tip of that star has small black toning spot on both pics.
no smoking gun, i know. but i will gladly listen to any smoking gun proving they are different!
everyone here knows how these proofs are. take a look at the coin. tilt it. then take another look. it will be totally different. so comparing the toning is very difficult.
I don't understand why, by now, no one has a better line on who this outfit is? Surely some honest board member in the San Antonio area could find out more.
The city this outfit supposedly is in is just north of SA, out I-10 West. I have quite a few cousins in that area and spent a lot of time in the hill country around there myself. I hate to think what I'd do to one of them if I found out this was their operation. Not even being family would help the slimeball(s) who run this outfit. I couldn't exactly kick their ass, but I could thrash them mightily about the head and upper body with my cane.
*-and that's just because of their lousy, misleading pictures; add the possible shill thing, well, they'd be DEAD MEAT!
<< <i>I'm just curious how you are basing your claims about GSC and what proof you have of this. I've been a long time buyer of their coins and a life long collector. I have always been very pleased with the prices I've been able to win both raw and certified coins at based on the grade.
The images they have of the raw coins always reflect the coin i receive in hand. in fact, it doesn't take much searching on ebay to see that they have the best images that clearly represent the coin. For further verification though i do send the coins in to be certified and have never been disappointed with the results. I'm just curious what evidence you have of "shill bidding" because that is quite the accusation and as of customer of theirs i'd like to know if its backed with validation or you're just a competitor trying to hurt their rep. >>
Nice to hear GSC chiming in....
************************************
Many successful BST transactions with dozens of board members, references on request.
I am a rookie at grading and noticing originality but what always bothers me is when a seller lists a raw coin that would demand a strong bid in plastic but for some reason isn't slabbed.
Especially when the seller has 100's of graded coins for sale.
GSC is one of these sellers.
It would seem to me that this type of seller has purchased lots of raw coins and submits what is worthy and resells what is not. The higher the dollar value of a raw coin the more suspect I become.
Everyone here does that to some extent.
We buy 100's of Silver Eagles and submit the 70 candidates and either return to the mint the others or sell raw on eBay.
These sellers I woldn't buy raw coins from because I know the raw coins have been "searched"
I can say this, a freind of mine had purchased several coins from this group on e-bay , he said the coins were really nice. And, They always seem to bring such high prices raw. He brought them in for me to view and every single coin was not holderable, they looked good, and some were damn good nearly tough to detect, especially too only the most competent grading eyes. He still wasn't convinced till I sent the order to PCGS and every coin came back in a genuine holder. I thing sellers like this make it from the many folks who do not really know how to grade or more importantly detect problem coins when they get them in from online auctions, mail order etc.
As far as the shills, I have no idea if they do or not . They do have a good return policy , so at least the people who know how to detect if they recived a problem coin can get refunds.
Same thing at local auctions, I was at one several months ago and all of the indian head cents were recolored ,and or not holderable, all the key dates went for a god awful amount of money, I was thinking wait till the day they decide to sell them to a dealer who knows what they are doing and or submits them to a tpg!!
I won't comment on the shilling hypothesis, either. I believe that GSC is no different from some of those multi-colored multi-page ad dealers in Coin World. They make money even if most of the coins are returned because of problems... as has been stated previously on this forum, sooner or later "the mud sticks to the ceiling." By using the internet and flattering (do I mean deceptive?) photos, GSC keeps sales high and overhead low. Sounds like a highly intelligent business model- for sociopaths.
It's funny people don't realize that a lot of local "auction" coins (at least in our area) are medium-scale vest pocket scuz-balls who work the auctions with cleaned and processed coins, fakes and often shill in conjunction with the auctioneers. Shilling is a big deal for a licensed auctioneer, they can lose their license forever, but they do it anyway and I've never heard of one getting punished.
I happen to live in the same town as this dealer. Interestingly enough, because of that I was accused earlier of actually being this dealer by a forum member who has a grudge against me. I have visted this shop, and while the coins are nicer, rarer and more interesting than the coins I have seen in some of the shops in San Antonio, they have the same drawbacks as any store with raw coins.
It is my usual practice to submit coins for grading and then sell them. If I sell an ungraded coin, its probably going to be because it might not grade, and I would disclose why.
So, I have the tendancy to think the same of sellers who sell graded coins, while also selling raw coins. Especially if the price on the raw coin could go straight up if in a PCGS holder.
If someone, not a regular dealer, is selling off coins raw, I completely understand it--they dont know the system, they dont know the coins, and they just want out. I recently sold off some cents for someone just like that. She didnt want to spend anymore time grading coins.
So, bottom line, we have an established dealer, someone who knows coins, someone who knows the results a graded coin could return, and they sell very nice looking raw coins.
It might be beneficial to everyone if the coins were described very accurately, and as for the "shill bidding"--could go either way--some folks like a seller and stay with them, or it could be something else. Hard to prove, and as a victim of personal attacks by a forum member, i know what it is like to be accused without any proof of wrongdoing--and a line of others standing behind me.
They start most everything at $9.95, and heavily promote new listings by email. Not unusual at all for people to bump up everything a dollar or two, hoping they might get a bargain.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>I can say this, a freind of mine had purchased several coins from this group on e-bay , he said the coins were really nice. And, They always seem to bring such high prices raw. He brought them in for me to view and every single coin was not holderable, they looked good, and some were damn good nearly tough to detect, especially too only the most competent grading eyes. He still wasn't convinced till I sent the order to PCGS and every coin came back in a genuine holder. I thing sellers like this make it from the many folks who do not really know how to grade or more importantly detect problem coins when they get them in from online auctions, mail order etc. ! >>
Yup, a typical experience from the high volume eBay raw coin sellers. Anyone who buys from these type of sellers, is not good at grading, and sends the coins in to get graded will get a very expensive grading lesson. The ones that know how to grade will return them and get their money back. The ones that don't know how to grade, and don't get their coins graded, will, unfortunately for them, be repeat customers. Also, when these sellers have expensive raw coins AND certified coins for sale, that should raise a BIG red flag about the raw coins.
Neither do I know why the first 40 sold so cheap. Maybe it was because it was vacation time for most Americans so very little competition? I'll never know but I have an IHC album full of red coins. It is spectacular.
Have you ever considered the possibility that the color on the coins is not original? That would be my first guess.
<< <i> Shilling is a big deal for a licensed auctioneer, they can lose their license forever, but they do it anyway and I've never heard of one getting punished. >>
Consignors have the right to bid on their own items UNLESS it is announced that it is an "absolute" auction. And since very few auctions are "absolute" (no reserves or minimums of any kind) MOST auctions allow it. So did ebay, until they started charging fees to have a reserve, and then had to run some clever disinformation campaigns (claiming that eBay sellers of fake artwork were actually sent to jail for shill bidding, not misrepresenting fake artwork as genuine) and supplying cash and ebay staff attorneys to a few overworked and underfunded DA and AG offices to make cases that violating an eBay house rule by using the internet is "wire fraud"
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
I don't know how you could really tell if someone on ebay is using shills, it may LOOK like shill bidding, but to be fair, there are simply too many possibilities to really know. However when someone consistently sells raw coin that would get higher prices in slabs, but for some unknown reason are being sold raw, that is a huge red flag. I had one experience with them and they did take the coin back, even after two months when I finally got it back from PCGS (oh, their "Gem BU" was an AU-58). That was the end of my buying raw coins on line, and why anyone would do so is beyond me.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>thanks for the "interesting first post comment"...I've read this site for a while now but felt like posting since I often buy online.
Forgive me but your evidence of 'shill' bidding is still lacking. The buyers you note have a very high percentage of bid activity with GSC and some only have 1 or 2 bids. Point being, when i first started buying coins through ebay i bought from multiple buyers and had various negative experiences but when dealing with GSC it was the opposite so I stuck with them. Now I would say that over 95% of the coins I buy online come from GSC. Many times I'm traveling or in and out of the office so I dont get to actively pursue certain coins like I'd like and the best I can do is get one or two bids in at a time. Sometimes i will do a max reserve bid and let it ride. With that said, you might look at my account and think I'm some how a shill bidder when I've just turned into a loyal customer and bid on the coins I like whether that means 1 bid to take a stab at it or 10 back and forth bids when I have the time. I'm sorry but it really just sounds like you're bitter competitors who aren't even close to the same class as GSC and dont have the type of loyal customers such as myself. At best its pure speculation and a humdrum attempt at that. I'm sorry but these guys have provided me with the best service and I've got coins to prove it. >>
GSC Alt? Inquiring minds want to know...
My thoughts exactly.
In a 20 year old example but not unlikethis , my father bought heavily from a "newsletter" dealer for ten years to assemble in IHC collection before the internet, until he had an almost complete set of "Mint State" coins. I had to break it to him gently this year that all of the coins he bought were severely cleaned, mainly because he asked me to help finish his collection and I was worried he would think I was crazy for stearing him to realistically priced coins. Big pill for me, big pill for him, but it hightlights the fact that many collectors and even avid ones have absolutely no idea how to look at a coin to determine originality.
<< <i>thanks for the "interesting first post comment"...I've read this site for a while now but felt like posting since I often buy online.
Forgive me but your evidence of 'shill' bidding is still lacking. The buyers you note have a very high percentage of bid activity with GSC and some only have 1 or 2 bids. Point being, when i first started buying coins through ebay i bought from multiple buyers and had various negative experiences but when dealing with GSC it was the opposite so I stuck with them. Now I would say that over 95% of the coins I buy online come from GSC. Many times I'm traveling or in and out of the office so I dont get to actively pursue certain coins like I'd like and the best I can do is get one or two bids in at a time. Sometimes i will do a max reserve bid and let it ride. With that said, you might look at my account and think I'm some how a shill bidder when I've just turned into a loyal customer and bid on the coins I like whether that means 1 bid to take a stab at it or 10 back and forth bids when I have the time. I'm sorry but it really just sounds like you're bitter competitors who aren't even close to the same class as GSC and dont have the type of loyal customers such as myself. At best its pure speculation and a humdrum attempt at that. I'm sorry but these guys have provided me with the best service and I've got coins to prove it. >>
Just had to register here and speak up on behalf of GSC huh? I guess if they use shill bidders, a shill poster shouldnt surprise me!
anyway one listed now looks better
previous listing
look different to me, but could very well be lighting/angles/photoshop etc and your suggestion of resale correct
Freedom is like inflation: you lose 2-3% every year. Slow enough that you don't even notice.
i would bet on that.
<< <i>it appears to me that the two pics above are the same coin.
i would bet on that. >>
If you are talking about the 2 photos of the 1866 half, I would bet you're wrong.
<< <i>
<< <i>it appears to me that the two pics above are the same coin.
i would bet on that. >>
If you are talking about the 2 photos of the 1866 half, I would bet you're wrong. >>
1. obverse, right leg, below the knee cap. small darker mark.
2. reverse, on rim by N in UNITED, small slashing cut into rim. possibly on all proofs of that year?
3. reverse, bottom of the banner left hand side, banner bottom has a very similar toning look.
4. obverse, liberty's chest, that toning spot. very faint on one pic, very
bold on the second.
5. obverse, 5th star counting from left, tip of that star has small black toning spot on both pics.
no smoking gun, i know. but i will gladly listen to any smoking gun proving
they are different!
everyone here knows how these proofs are. take a look at the coin.
tilt it. then take another look. it will be totally different. so comparing
the toning is very difficult.
i will stick with my guess, thanks
The city this outfit supposedly is in is just north of SA, out I-10 West. I have quite a few cousins in that area and spent a lot of time in the hill country around there myself. I hate to think what I'd do to one of them if I found out this was their operation. Not even being family would help the slimeball(s) who run this outfit. I couldn't exactly kick their ass, but I could thrash them mightily about the head and upper body with my cane.
*-and that's just because of their lousy, misleading pictures; add the possible shill thing, well, they'd be DEAD MEAT!
<< <i>I'm just curious how you are basing your claims about GSC and what proof you have of this. I've been a long time buyer of their coins and a life long collector. I have always been very pleased with the prices I've been able to win both raw and certified coins at based on the grade.
The images they have of the raw coins always reflect the coin i receive in hand. in fact, it doesn't take much searching on ebay to see that they have the best images that clearly represent the coin. For further verification though i do send the coins in to be certified and have never been disappointed with the results. I'm just curious what evidence you have of "shill bidding" because that is quite the accusation and as of customer of theirs i'd like to know if its backed with validation or you're just a competitor trying to hurt their rep. >>
Nice to hear GSC chiming in....
Many successful BST transactions with dozens of board members, references on request.
that would demand a strong bid in plastic but for some reason isn't slabbed.
Especially when the seller has 100's of graded coins for sale.
GSC is one of these sellers.
It would seem to me that this type of seller has purchased lots of raw coins and submits what is worthy and
resells what is not. The higher the dollar value of a raw coin the more suspect I become.
Everyone here does that to some extent.
We buy 100's of Silver Eagles and submit the 70 candidates and either return to the mint the others or sell raw on eBay.
These sellers I woldn't buy raw coins from because I know the raw coins have been "searched"
Joe
As far as the shills, I have no idea if they do or not . They do have a good return policy , so at least the people who know how to detect if they recived a problem coin can get refunds.
Same thing at local auctions, I was at one several months ago and all of the indian head cents were recolored ,and or not holderable, all the key dates went for a god awful amount of money, I was thinking wait till the day they decide to sell them to a dealer who knows what they are doing and or submits them to a tpg!!
<< <i>I have to think this is a shill runup as this is way to much money for this coin1934
I think they caught a fish on this one as it is the type of coin that people get excited over. >>
Just to clarify.. that is a different seller.. is that the correct link? thanks.
It is my usual practice to submit coins for grading and then sell them. If I sell an ungraded coin, its probably going to be because it might not grade, and I would disclose why.
So, I have the tendancy to think the same of sellers who sell graded coins, while also selling raw coins. Especially if the price on the raw coin could go straight up if in a PCGS holder.
If someone, not a regular dealer, is selling off coins raw, I completely understand it--they dont know the system, they dont know the coins, and they just want out. I recently sold off some cents for someone just like that. She didnt want to spend anymore time grading coins.
So, bottom line, we have an established dealer, someone who knows coins, someone who knows the results a graded coin could return, and they sell very nice looking raw coins.
It might be beneficial to everyone if the coins were described very accurately, and as for the "shill bidding"--could go either way--some folks like a seller and stay with them, or it could be something else. Hard to prove, and as a victim of personal attacks by a forum member, i know what it is like to be accused without any proof of wrongdoing--and a line of others standing behind me.
<< <i>I can say this, a freind of mine had purchased several coins from this group on e-bay , he said the coins were really nice. And, They always seem to bring such high prices raw. He brought them in for me to view and every single coin was not holderable, they looked good, and some were damn good nearly tough to detect, especially too only the most competent grading eyes. He still wasn't convinced till I sent the order to PCGS and every coin came back in a genuine holder. I thing sellers like this make it from the many folks who do not really know how to grade or more importantly detect problem coins when they get them in from online auctions, mail order etc. ! >>
Yup, a typical experience from the high volume eBay raw coin sellers. Anyone who buys from these type of sellers, is not good at grading, and sends the coins in to get graded will get a very expensive grading lesson. The ones that know how to grade will return them and get their money back. The ones that don't know how to grade, and don't get their coins graded, will, unfortunately for them, be repeat customers. Also, when these sellers have expensive raw coins AND certified coins for sale, that should raise a BIG red flag about the raw coins.
Have you ever considered the possibility that the color on the coins is not original? That would be my first guess.
roadrunner
<< <i>you say coin is relisted, they say 725 minted - maybe they have multiples
anyway one listed now looks better >>
The bottom coin has a wire rim on the right half of the reverse.
<< <i> Shilling is a big deal for a licensed auctioneer, they can lose their license forever, but they do it anyway and I've never heard of one getting punished. >>
Consignors have the right to bid on their own items UNLESS it is announced that it is an "absolute" auction. And since very few auctions are
"absolute" (no reserves or minimums of any kind) MOST auctions allow it. So did ebay, until they started charging fees to have a reserve, and
then had to run some clever disinformation campaigns (claiming that eBay sellers of fake artwork were actually sent to jail for shill bidding, not
misrepresenting fake artwork as genuine) and supplying cash and ebay staff attorneys to a few overworked and underfunded DA and AG
offices to make cases that violating an eBay house rule by using the internet is "wire fraud"