Anyone see an altered surface here?

FEC

This came back Genuine-Altered Surface. What am I not seeing?

Here is the gigantic version if you need a closer look:
http://www.pcgs.com/TrueView/Large/15743857.jpg

fc

interesting.. i look at the coin and my first reaction is not altered
surfaces.

i am curious what others think.

commoncents05

Looks like an old cleaning.

-Paul

morgandollar1878

I don't see it, but I am not an expert on this series either. I wish PCGS would explain with a little detail when they give a no-grade like this.

fc

<< <i>Looks like an old cleaning.

-Paul >>



FEC, does the coin have hairlines we cannot see under the toning?

and since when has an old cleaning ever stopped a lot of coins from
grading?

notwilight

<< <i>interesting.. i look at the coin and my first reaction is not altered
surfaces.

i am curious what others think. >>



Nobody much more critical than you. that is a strong positive vote for this coin. --Jerry

fivecents

The 2nd "E" in STATES and the bottom of the "O" in OF seem a little odd and misshaped.

Just grabbing at straws I guess.

itsnotjustme

Could it be for the obv line just above the bust from the rim into the neck?

Presume that is a die crack into the eagle's right (viewer left) wing.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

Try again. Sometimes you just get bad luck...

notwilight

After looking at it on the jumbotron, I see nothing wrong with it other than quite a few interesting cracks. --Jerry

Shortgapbob

Looks gradable to me. But, they can knock almost any early type coin for altered surfaces if they feel like it though.

FEC

Its so frustrating. Its like throwing money in the toilet.

Unknown

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WoodenJefferson

It looks, well, to clean, especially for one that was minted almost 175 years ago. The recesses that usually attract gunk are devoid of any contaminets which usually signals a cleaning.

jesbroken

I see nothing that would cause an "altered surface" designation, but "they" are the professionals. Personally, with this coin's strike, coloring and neato die cracks, I would care less what any tpg thought about it for it would never leave my collection and would be placed in my own holder for safekeepking.
Good luck.
Jim

ponderit

<< <i>I see nothing that would cause an "altered surface" designation, but "they" are the professionals. Personally, with this coin's strike, coloring and neato die cracks, I would care less what any tpg thought about it for it would never leave my collection and would be placed in my own holder for safekeepking.
Good luck.
Jim >>





That's exactly what I was thinking, great coin and I'd be proud to own it no matter what I'm told

VAMSKY

The only suggestion to make on this one (quite nice btw) is to closely check the lines in the shield on the reverse. There seems to be disproportionate definition compared to the wing feather wear. This may indicate some tooling to increase definition. Otherwise I see nothing out of the ordinary.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I don't see it, but I am not an expert on this series either. I wish PCGS would explain with a little detail when they give a no-grade like this. >>




Maybe they can't explain it. Kinda like porn, can't define it but you know it when you see it.

AUandAG

pen knife scratch from neck down to rim (just above chest).

?
bob

crazyhounddog

I don't see any obvious problems with this beautiful coin!

shorecoll

I don't know these die varieties, maybe something should be there that isn't. Removing/lightening a die crack or something.

doh

I'm assuming they didn't like the toning. If the grade doesn't fit you must resubmit!

PTVETTER

I have never been able to grasp the altered surface concept.

and I KNOW I'm not alone here!

LindeDad

That shield does seem to be just a little too nice as mentioned above.

RedneckHB

Looks cleaned long ago and retoned. Sometimes they call this "altered surfaces".

sinin1

obverse

a triangle from neck below chin to 1st and 2nd stars

almost like a reverse arrowhead in this triangle



something affected the toning in this area, making it different than the rest of the coin



when the coin gets returned, look close for a light whizzing in this area (which would be a possibility)

Steve27

If you look at the obverse, there appears to be a film of "dirt" (black spots across the surface); this may be the "altered surface" issue. I would try an acetone bath to remove any foreign substances on the coin, and if the "dirt" comes off, then I would resubmit it.

19Lyds

<< <i>pen knife scratch from neck down to rim (just above chest).

?
bob >>



Thats a die crack.

You just need to resubmit until they get it right.

Connecticoin

There appear to be some scratches that toned over, but not enough to No-Grade a circulated coin.

Try NGC, and then if you HAVE to have PCGS plastic, try to cross it.

Fairlaneman

Look at her eye.

Ken

yellowkid

It would be nice to know why the designation?????

renomedphys

I can almost gurantee that a resubmission would yield a different result, if not an outright grade. If you do go NGC and then try for cross, make sure to allow for a 1 point downgrade. It makes PCGS feel better about cracking the coin.

RedneckHB

Definately looks messed with in this thread.

Pre submission pics

scoobydeux

Often one needs to see the coin in hand to make this type of determination.

I suggest that you use a 30x or higher microscope to examine the surfaces. If you see numerous simmilar sized parallel lines, then you've got a cleaned coin on your hand. Circulation wear tends to cause random and nonuniform surface marks.

icsoccer

Well after getting my own "altered surfaces" back...it took me a few days...but I believe they were correct.
Why...perhaps the same as yours.."its been puttied"....but you need to see it in hand...perhaps on only 1 side....

Wolf359

<< <i>I don't see it, but I am not an expert on this series either. I wish PCGS would explain with a little detail when they give a no-grade like this. >>



Honestly, there sometimes isn't any other detail to share. It just strikes the grader as "messed with", and it gets bagged. Besides if they give you detail you cannot understand or see it just pisses you off and solves nothing.

Send it back again, and it may holder normally.

09sVDB

As previously stated it looks cleaned(long ago) and retoned.

FEC

This link will allow you to see the coin in gigantic scale. The surface is pretty clear.

http://www.pcgs.com/TrueView/Large/15743857.jpg

To resubmit a coin that should have been graded the first time is sort of like rewarding someone for screwing up. Each time I have to resbumit it, I have to pay for it again. Wouldnt that mentality just make a TPG want to bag as many good coins as they can to get paid over and over again for work that should have been done right the first time?

When I get it back, I will get out the microscope. If there is nothing wrong with it, its going to NGC. Its frustraing and it makes no sense to me that this coin wasnt graded. I looked at it a long time before I bought it and I can see it pretty darn well from their images. I just do not believe that there is anything on that coin that should have kept it out of plastic.

JRocco

<< <i>

To resubmit a coin that should have been graded the first time is sort of like rewarding someone for screwing up. Each time I have to resbumit it, I have to pay for it again. >>



I can't agree more.
This looks like the type of coin that easily made it into slabs for decades, but not anymore

JamesA46

What hits me the wrong way with PCGS unwillingness to explain their deisions on why they reject a coin is that they are doing this to PAYING customers. These customers are the lifeblood of their business. It appears to me that the people at PCGS need a course in customer service/courtesy.
This is also an indication of an industry that does not have healthy or little competition.
If there were 15-20 highly reputable companies out there competing with PCGS you can bet the farm they'd start explaining why they reject a coin for fear of their customer base going elswhere to do business.

I've read in other threads that address the same kind of problem where the complainant/customer won't even get a response to inquiries or complaints. One said elswhere that they wondered if they had a board of directors they could complain to hoping to get some kind of response. It doesn't work that way.

What you do, is send them a registered letter demanding an explanation and state that if they donot reply in a specified number of days, then they can start answering questions from your U.S. Congressmen.

I'm sure they would not like being forced to operate by a set of universal standards and guidelines set by the U.S. Government.
In the diamond industry, any time a gem diamond is graded, there are a set of strict guidelines that must be adhered to and a written explanation must be presented to their customers as to why they graded the stone the way they did.


I also read elsewhere that the two major grading entities NGC and PCGS operate with a relatively small staff and are required to grade an enormous amount of coins per day. This being the case at what point during the day or week does the employee/grader pass the point of diminishing returns on the quality of his or her work because of fatigue? They are human like anyone else and I wonder how many coins get a favorable grade at 9:a.m. in the morning because the employee is still fresh and just finished breakfast as opposed to someones coins who get a rush job grading because it's 4:30 p.m. on a Friday afternoon and the employee is clock watching and wanting to get done quickly because the weekend is at hand and he or she wants out of there?

Because I've been in the service oriented business for nearly 50 years in which selling yourself is imperative and your reputation is based on your quality of your customer service care it is completely foreign to me to read about these companies absolutely refusing to explain to their paying customers why they came to a certain decision on the grading or rejection of a coin.

I don't want to hear that they are so consumed with the high quality of their grading techniques and the number of coins they are required to work with per day that they simply don't have the time or wherewithal to give written explanations to every customer who requests one. That's just an excuse.
If they are that overworked, hire and train more people.

darktone

Looks like a non coin person wiped off some of the toning with a rag soaked in jewelry cleaner and left some residue behind along with the partially removed toning.

scoobydeux

<< <i>This link will allow you to see the coin in gigantic scale. The surface is pretty clear.

http://www.pcgs.com/TrueView/Large/15743857.jpg

To resubmit a coin that should have been graded the first time is sort of like rewarding someone for screwing up. Each time I have to resbumit it, I have to pay for it again. Wouldnt that mentality just make a TPG want to bag as many good coins as they can to get paid over and over again for work that should have been done right the first time?

When I get it back, I will get out the microscope. If there is nothing wrong with it, its going to NGC. Its frustraing and it makes no sense to me that this coin wasnt graded. I looked at it a long time before I bought it and I can see it pretty darn well from their images. I just do not believe that there is anything on that coin that should have kept it out of plastic. >>



FEC--the "large" Pcgs truview is very good, but it isn't large enough to make the determination that I was referring to. The large truview is probably around 6-7x, but you really need 30+. You'll be surprised at the different view you get when you try this high magnification.

darktone

I really don't think the PCGS graders were looking at this coin under 30X magnafication.

SamByrd

<< <i>If you look at the obverse, there appears to be a film of "dirt" (black spots across the surface); this may be the "altered surface" issue. I would try an acetone bath to remove any foreign substances on the coin, and if the "dirt" comes off, then I would resubmit it. >>



that is very sound advice. I really don't see anything that makes me think its a bagger. I would try again after the bath.

pocketpiececommems

I've had several circulated commems bb for altered surfaces. I couldn't figure it out either. It would be a great learning experience if a note about why and where were included.

Goldbully

Love the coin...."YOU WERE ROBBED!"

EagleEye

I believe if you send it for a Presidential Review, you will get a note.

I would stick this into a bookshelf album and forget about sending it in for grading. Use the money you save for another coin.

Broadstruck

<< <i>Looks like an old cleaning.

-Paul >>





Yet nice secondary toning.

There's plenty of Bust material just like it entombed in 20+ years worth of graded TPG holders... guess it's easier now to just Genuine it

CoinAuctionsHelp

The coin was cleaned or dipped and has retoned in an album.

lkeigwin

<< <i>...Its frustrating and it makes no sense to me that this coin wasn't graded. I looked at it a long time before I bought it and I can see it pretty darn well from their images. I just do not believe that there is anything on that coin that should have kept it out of plastic. >>

I sympathize. You have a lot of company.

Looking back at your thread, Would this bust quarter slab?, it appears you had worries it would not grade. You said "Here is a close up of the surface. Its kind of murky and there is a small scratch/gouge that erupts from the die crack near the throat. Would the surface or the scratch be enough to bag it?"

Personally, I like the coin and feel it belongs in a PCGS slab. But If it BB's again, at PCGS or NGC, I would give up. Your initial doubts were validated.
Lance.

guitarwes

My guess is that the Rev fields are much "cleaner" than the Obv fields meaning that it might have been messed with lightly at one time. Very nice coin and I probably wouldn't hesitate buying it if I saw it. Love the color.