1909 VDB question concerning the difference in the surface texture on the obverse and reverse of thi

JamesA46

Hello again. It's me rookie James.
I suppose I should have posted this under the U.S. Coins topic but I find that the most knowledgeble people are to be found here.
Some of you know I just started trying to put a Lincoln set together with my grandson who is enjoying the heck out of it. So my knowledge is pretty much limited to what I have been learning from books and from you guys although I did collect coins when I was a young teenager.

We have a 1909 VDB uncirculated cent which you would describe as "raw" I guess since it isn't graded and I don't have the capacity to post a photo right now. I would call it an uncirculated red. It doesn't indicate any circulation wear at the points that are commonly worn on circulated coins. It's nice but I wouldn't call it a top grade. What is puzzling the heck out of me is the dramatic difference in the texture of the obverse and reverse of the coin. The obverse in my opinion has a usual smooth or satiny look one would find on an uncirculated coin.
But, the reverse of the coin has a strange fine granular texture that appears as best I can describe as though the entire surface of the reverse had been covered with a fine gold dust appearance when it reflects light. Looking at the coin through a loupe really makes this granular texture really jump out at you.

In your opinion does this sound like someone has used some sort of acid to clean up the reverse of the coin resulting in this grainy or fine granular texture or did the mint allow the dies to degrade this bad before they replaced them? If someone cleaned the reverse of the coin in some way to cause this fine grainular texture it surprises me considering someone went through a lot of trouble for a coin not worth that much money.

robec

Would love to see a picture of it. Your description of the reverse makes it sound like it has a matte finish, although the chances of it being the illusive proof VDB are pretty remote. I think I've read more than once that there are many examples of early Lincoln's that exhibit this type of finish. Thank god for diagnostics that can hopefully separate the two. I don't have an answer to your question, but I am positive that one of the resident experts will have some information.

renomedphys

I recently saw a UNC Details FE cent in a B&M that had the same texture. Glittered like gold, but obviously harshly dipped. The only thing I could think of was some kind of strong acid.

66RB

Hi James, does the coin's texture bear any resemblance to this one? Please bear with me on the photos, as they are my own and they are not very good, I just wanted to put up a photo that I think shows what you are seeing on your coin.

JamesA46

When you look at the reverse through a loop at an angle where the light reflects from the surface it is actually very pleasing to the eye. The bright glitter effect caused by the light reflecting off the surface makes for thousands of tiny points of glittering light and the texture is uniform over the entire surface of the reverse.

Actually we've had this for a while and it was only by accident when we were looking at the reverse through the loop that I was struck with the unusal texture of the reverse of the coin. I never considered the possibility that it could be a matte proof. The first point of the diagnostic is the line going from Lincoln's shoulder and pointing toward the "R" in "Liberty". I just never saw it. But since the subject was brought up, I carefully looked at that area with the loupe and then carefully calculated exactly where that line would be found pointing from Lincoln's shoulder. All I could see was a small line pointing exactly at a 45 degree angle but it is so small that I doubt if it is a millimeter in length. But it does jut out from the spot on his shoulder where the diagnostic line should be and it is there. I remember one of the members in here mentioning that on his 1909 MPL VDB the line is so faint that even using his loupe he sometimes can't even see it and yet other times sees it right away.

Looking at Lincolns nose with the loupe, there are polish lines pointing upward toward his nose and a couple that radiate out from it up and to the right but these polish lines or no where near as prominant as those I've seen in photos of genuine 1909 VDB MPL's.

On the reverse, again there appears to be a die defect just to the right of the "M" in "UNUM" that definitely has a crescent shape. Again it is not as prominant as I've seen in photos of the genuine MPL but there is also polish lines in the immediate area where it appears that at some point an attempt was made to polish out this die defect but they were not completely successful.

I'm not a trained expert and unfortunately, I don't have the wherewithal to post the fine hi-res photos that you guys are able to post.
I tried to the best of my ability to paint a word picture of what I see. If anyone thinks it's worth the effort, I will take it to the Heritage auction office in Dallas and let them take a look at it.
I would be shocked if this was a genuine VDB MPL.

JamesA46

<< <i>Hi James, does the coin's texture bear any resemblance to this one? Please bear with me on the photos, as they are my own and they are not very good, I just wanted to put up a photo that I think shows what you are seeing on your coin.

>>



Rob-
I would say that the type of texture is similar but what I see on the reverse of your coins, the texture does not appear to be as fine as that on the reverse of mine. But again, it could be an illusion. The one on the right is closer to the texture but again it doesn't seem to reflect the strong fine and uniform texture as I see on the reverse of my coin..

JamesA46

<< <i>I recently saw a UNC Details FE cent in a B&M that had the same texture. Glittered like gold, but obviously harshly dipped. The only thing I could think of was some kind of strong acid. >>



That would certainly explain the dramatic difference in the texture of the obverse and reverse of the coin. Of course, you'd have to consider the motive for doing it and the motive is always financial. It makes no sense for someone to go through that much trouble for a fairly common coin that is also found in large numbers in uncirculated condition. Couldn't someone simply use Dipit copper cleaner that you can buy in a grocery store to clean tarnished or blemished pennies? My coin is a classic copper red on both the obverse and reverse.

One other thing I failed to mention is on the obverse there is an obvious die crack that runs from the bottom edge of Lincolns shoulder to the edge of the coin. It is noticable without any magnification enhancement. Anyone have any 1909 VDB's in their collection that has this die crack?