Should slabs indicate the "Date of Certification"?
MrEureka
Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭✭
Originally, it was a good idea for PCGS and NGC to not indicate the DOC on its slabs. It was important to send the message that standards would not change, and that the assigned grades would never be repudiated. Now that that message has been clearly sent and the TPGS are fully entrenched in the market, it's worth reconsidering.
I see a few advantages to adding the DOC. First, it will help buyers determine how stable the coin is. For example, if you see a slabbed red copper with a five year old DOC, and if it's still full red, it's probably stable. Second, it will help buyers identify coins that may have been doctored. For example, if you see a strange cloudy pattern on a gold coin slabbed a couple of years ago, it may be worth getting a second opinion on the coin before buying it. But if you know the coin was graded last week, you can be pretty sure that the graders saw the coin looking exactly as it looks today, so it's probably OK. Third, and most importantly, it may help in the battle against counterfeiters. For example, if we one day realize that the market was infiltrated by nearly perfect 1877 Indian Cents in approximately the year 2012, it will be useful for authenticators to have access to pieces with pre-2012 DOCs for reference purposes.
Agreed?
I see a few advantages to adding the DOC. First, it will help buyers determine how stable the coin is. For example, if you see a slabbed red copper with a five year old DOC, and if it's still full red, it's probably stable. Second, it will help buyers identify coins that may have been doctored. For example, if you see a strange cloudy pattern on a gold coin slabbed a couple of years ago, it may be worth getting a second opinion on the coin before buying it. But if you know the coin was graded last week, you can be pretty sure that the graders saw the coin looking exactly as it looks today, so it's probably OK. Third, and most importantly, it may help in the battle against counterfeiters. For example, if we one day realize that the market was infiltrated by nearly perfect 1877 Indian Cents in approximately the year 2012, it will be useful for authenticators to have access to pieces with pre-2012 DOCs for reference purposes.
Agreed?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Comments
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
As for who graded it- not necessary, just the date of grading is acceptable, I have asked this on several occasions and have been told they cant do that!
We all know that at periods in time grades have fluctuated to how the market views a series, well the DOC can asist in the establishment of this as a fact.
There would be no need to keep changing label colors or slab designs just to keep the forgeries from getting out in the public realm.
Knowing how to read the code would be the significant part of authentication.
This is one of the best questions I have seen in ages..
Not sure I follow your logic here.....if the coin hasn't had time to turn in the holder, it's OK??
Other than slab style and tag color, we have no other way of dating them unless you crap shoot the cert #'s.
indication of date of grading for many slabs.The disadvantages of
no dating goes back to the initial business plan of sight unseen
bidding. Since that has really collapsed, the thinking remains.
Camelot
<< <i>Originally, it was a good idea for PCGS and NGC to not indicate the DOC on its slabs. It was important to send the message that standards would not change, and that the assigned grades would never be repudiated. Now that that message has been clearly sent and the TPGS are fully entrenched in the market, it's worth reconsidering.
I see a few advantages to adding the DOC. First, it will help buyers determine how stable the coin is. For example, if you see a slabbed red copper with a five year old DOC, and if it's still full red, it's probably stable. Second, it will help buyers identify coins that may have been doctored. For example, if you see a strange cloudy pattern on a gold coin slabbed a couple of years ago, it may be worth getting a second opinion on the coin before buying it. But if you know the coin was graded last week, you can be pretty sure that the graders saw the coin looking exactly as it looks today, so it's probably OK. Third, and most importantly, it may help in the battle against counterfeiters. For example, if we one day realize that the market was infiltrated by nearly perfect 1877 Indian Cents in approximately the year 2012, it will be useful for authenticators to have access to pieces with pre-2012 DOCs for reference purposes.
Agreed? >>
The only reason I would use the DOC is for the NGC Copper Grading Guarantee.
<< <i>Originally, it was a good idea for PCGS and NGC to not indicate the DOC on its slabs. It was important to send the message that standards would not change, and that the assigned grades would never be repudiated. Now that that message has been clearly sent and the TPGS are fully entrenched in the market, it's worth reconsidering.
I see a few advantages to adding the DOC. First, it will help buyers determine how stable the coin is. For example, if you see a slabbed red copper with a five year old DOC, and if it's still full red, it's probably stable. Second, it will help buyers identify coins that may have been doctored. For example, if you see a strange cloudy pattern on a gold coin slabbed a couple of years ago, it may be worth getting a second opinion on the coin before buying it. But if you know the coin was graded last week, you can be pretty sure that the graders saw the coin looking exactly as it looks today, so it's probably OK. Third, and most importantly, it may help in the battle against counterfeiters. For example, if we one day realize that the market was infiltrated by nearly perfect 1877 Indian Cents in approximately the year 2012, it will be useful for authenticators to have access to pieces with pre-2012 DOCs for reference purposes.
Agreed? >>
Very interesting question, Andy.
I agree with all three of your premises, especially #3!!!
The stability of the 'Red' designation would be brought to the forefront....a one or two year DOC slab that shows an old IHC as red would increase the value of that coin.....much more so than the OGH!!!!
One of the best thread ideas I've seen of late....thank you!!!
Why not?
plus processing fee and postage
"The pictured coin was graded on Aug 11. Will I get a coin graded that day?"
"I received my coin today and it was graded a day earlier than the pictured coin. Can I exchange it?"
"I am collecting coins graded on Thursday. Can you pull out your perpetual calendar and find me coins graded on thursdays only?"
"Please make sure you do not send me coins graded on Mondays or Fridays as Automotive research shows more errors on those days."
"Why was this 2002 coin not graded until 2008?"
etc
--Jerry
<< <i>As a modern seller I can see a million questions coming from it:
"The pictured coin was graded on Aug 11. Will I get a coin graded that day?"
"I received my coin today and it was graded a day earlier than the pictured coin. Can I exchange it?"
"I am collecting coins graded on Thursday. Can you pull out your perpetual calendar and find me coins graded on thursdays only?"
"Please make sure you do not send me coins graded on Mondays or Fridays as Automotive research shows more errors on those days."
"Why was this 2002 coin not graded until 2008?"
etc
It's all a crap shoot anyway.
We still have a vague timeline as it is, with new holigrams, inserts and slabs.
Why not just plaster the DOC somewhere on the darn slab?
BTW, I do the same job no matter what day I happen to be at work, and I do the best I can (Ask how many UAW employees are now out of work)
Ray
--Jerry >>
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Too many variables and too much potential for controversy. The negative effects of adding a certification date will far outweigh whatever positives there may be. >>
I just might see your point if the graders had to put "their mark" on the coin, otherwise I see no big deal.
Slabs absolutely should date the opinion.
It is very useful to have an approximation of that data. I was all over Condor101's book when he came out with his history of slabs. I have it and use it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Too many variables and too much potential for controversy. The negative effects of adding a certification date will far outweigh whatever positives there may be. >>
I just might see your point if the graders had to put "their mark" on the coin, otherwise I see no big deal. >>
There would be a lot of games and rumors about certain grading dates. Certain time periods would be rumored to be loose or strict. Certain unscrupulous dealers would cut their offers on coins graded on certain dates. Certain unscrupulous people would spread rumors on the Internet to further their own gains. Know-nothing newbies would eat these rumors up, and have yet another huge pit to fall into when they start into the hobby, and find yet another way to get a trip to the cleaners.
Marketing is the primary business of the grading companies. Consistency of product, and perceived consistency in grading and valuation are cornerstones of good marketing. If the companies saw value in including the date for all to see, it would be done. Perhaps some company execs will chime in, but the negatives are clear to me, and they are multiple. I'm sure company execs have considered the idea and rejected it. Those that can't see the negatives are not looking hard enough, not thinking about unintended side effects, not thinking about how the unscrupulous might spread absolutely crazy stories and lies, to further their own profits.
The catch-22 situation is the NGC 10 year guarantee on copper. Only NGC knows the grade date. The dealer, the collector are both in the dark, unless one of them is the original submitter.
would be some disadvantages as well but I think these would tend to be
minor. Perhaps just having a code with which anyone could determine this
date would be sufficient.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Too many variables and too much potential for controversy. The negative effects of adding a certification date will far outweigh whatever positives there may be. >>
I just might see your point if the graders had to put "their mark" on the coin, otherwise I see no big deal. >>
There would be a lot of games and rumors about certain grading dates. Certain time periods would be rumored to be loose or strict. Certain unscrupulous dealers would cut their offers on coins graded on certain dates. Certain unscrupulous people would spread rumors on the Internet to further their own gains. Know-nothing newbies would eat these rumors up, and have yet another huge pit to fall into when they start into the hobby, and find yet another way to get a trip to the cleaners.
Marketing is the primary business of the grading companies. Consistency of product, and perceived consistency in grading and valuation are cornerstones of good marketing. If the companies saw value in including the date for all to see, it would be done. Perhaps some company execs will chime in, but the negatives are clear to me, and they are multiple. I'm sure company execs have considered the idea and rejected it. Those that can't see the negatives are not looking hard enough, not thinking about unintended side effects, not thinking about how the unscrupulous might spread absolutely crazy stories and lies, to further their own profits.
The catch-22 situation is the NGC 10 year guarantee on copper. Only NGC knows the grade date. The dealer, the collector are both in the dark, unless one of them is the original submitter. >>
So we are just buying the slab in your scenerio (sight unseen)?
This is getting to creepy for me!
<< <i>There would be advantages to having dates on the slabs. No doubt there
would be some disadvantages as well but I think these would tend to be
minor. Perhaps just having a code with which anyone could determine this
date would be sufficient. >>
The open question is then: why hasn't any major grading company made the change? Looks like about 70% to 80% on this thread are in favor. Are the grading company execs anticipating problems that others don't? Are they imagining problems that don't exist? Who knows more about the business than the principals at the major companies? Virtually no one.
So again, I am sure that the idea of dates on the slab, has been brought up and considered on multiple occasions by multiple companies. Because it hasn't been adopted or even tried on a trial basis, I would tend to believe that those that only see minor problems are not thinking the idea through. That the reason no one has tried it, not even minor players such as ICG or the new ANACS means that after thinking it through the conclusions are that dating either adds very little value, causes considerable logistical problems for ops, and/or opens up considerable problems to the final product.
<< <i>
<< <i>There would be advantages to having dates on the slabs. No doubt there
would be some disadvantages as well but I think these would tend to be
minor. Perhaps just having a code with which anyone could determine this
date would be sufficient. >>
The open question is then: why hasn't any major grading company made the change? Looks like about 70% to 80% on this thread are in favor. Are the grading company execs anticipating problems that others don't? Are they imagining problems that don't exist? Who knows more about the business than the principals at the major companies? Virtually no one.
So again, I am sure that the idea of dates on the slab, has been brought up and considered on multiple occasions by multiple companies. Because it hasn't been adopted or even tried on a trial basis, I would tend to believe that those that only see minor problems are not thinking the idea through. That the reason no one has tried it, not even minor players such as ICG or the new ANACS means that after thinking it through the conclusions are that dating either adds very little value, causes considerable logistical problems for ops, and/or opens up considerable problems to the final product. >>
You are assuming what the TPG companies are thinking?...........Got facts?
No logistical problems IMHO and your value assumption is not even in the same ballpark that everyone else is talking about! Who is talking value?
The DOC could be a small piece of info on the barcode, no higher price for slabbing that itty bitty piece of information I would think.
Maybe an E-mail to a few of the TPG services would help............Ask them for some answers?
Ray