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NGC and PCGS "First Strikes" graded coins are still being sold without any question of the

As some of you know, I am new to the forum and a novice coin collector. I did collect coins many years ago when I was young but dropped the hobby until recently when I decided to start building a Lincoln collection for my grandson.

My question concerns the issue of the "First Strikes" designation on unc. coins by NGC and PCGS. I knew absolutely nothing about the controversy surrounding this designation until two days ago when by simple curiosity I wanted to find out what criteria the grading organizations used to designate a coin a "First Strikes" issue. So, I began searching the internet and to my surprise found out there was a tremendous amount of controversy concerning the "First Strikes" issue.

Well, to make a long story short since all of you are obviously very familiar with this story and controversy, I wanted to ask your opinions concerning the fact that there are still many sellers on ebay pushing these "First Strikes" coins, especially in the American Eagle Silver Dollar U.S. coin series.

There is even an article by ebay on their "Views and Opinions" section in which they call the "First Strikes" designation outright lying and fraud. If that is the case, then why are so many of their ebay members allowed to continue to sell these coins still in the NGC and PCGS "First Strikes" slabs and the seller mentions nothing about the controversy over this grading designation to potential buyers? I also found one other thing very strange too. Many of the American Eagle silver dollars that were graded "First Strikes" by NGC had no specific grade attached to them such as MS65, MS69 etc.
It simply stated BU Gem which seems to be pretty doggone vague for a company whose very existence depends on their detailed, professional and specially coded grading system.

Anyone care to expand on this? I would certainly appreciate some input from you guys on this topic.

Comments

  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,267 ✭✭✭
    You go to a lot of effort to blame the sellers; why not blame the companies that continue to produce these items?

    Here's the Mint's view of FS:

    " The United States Mint has received inquiries from consumers regarding use of the term "first strike." The term has appeared in connection with the advertising and grading of 2005 and 2006 silver, gold, and platinum proof and bullion American Eagle Coins, and the new 2006 24-karat proof and bullion American Buffalo Gold Coins. Currently, there is no widely-accepted and standardized numismatic industry definition of "first strike." Coin dealers and grading services may use this term in varying ways. Some base its use on dates appearing on United States Mint product packaging or packing slips, or on the dates of product releases or ceremonial coin strike events. Consumers should carefully review the following information along with each dealer’s or grading service’s definition of "first strike" when considering a purchase of coins with this designation.

    The United States Mint has not designated any 2005 or 2006 American Eagle Coins or 2006 American Buffalo Coins as "first strikes," nor do we track the order in which we mint such coins during their production. The United States Mint held a launch ceremony for the 2006 American Buffalo Gold Coin on June 20, 2006, two days before its release on June 22, at which two proof coins and two uncirculated coins were ceremonially struck. However, those coins were not individually identified and were put in regular inventory after the ceremony. The United States Mint did not hold any striking ceremonies for the 2005 or 2006 American Eagle Coins.

    The United States Mint strives to produce coins of consistently high quality throughout the course of production. Our strict quality controls assure that coins of this caliber are produced from each die set throughout its useful life. Our manufacturing facilities use a die set as long as the quality of resulting coins meets United States Mint standards, and then replace the dies, continually changing sets throughout the production process. For bullion American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins, the United States Mint makes an average of about 6,000 coins from one die set. For proof versions of the 2006 American Buffalo Coins, the yield is an average of about 1,500 coins per die set. For proof versions of the American Eagle Coins, the yield is an average of about 300-500 coins per die set. This means that coins may be minted from new die sets at any point and at multiple times while production of a coin is ongoing, not just the first day or at the beginning of production. To put this in context, in 2005 the United States Mint produced approximately 356,500 one-ounce gold, 8,891,000 silver, and 6,300 one-ounce platinum American Eagle Bullion Coins.

    American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins are not individually numbered and the United States Mint does not keep track of the order or date of minting of individual bullion or proof coins. The United States Mint begins production several weeks before these coins are scheduled to be released. By the release dates for 2005 and 2006 bullion coins, the United States Mint had already minted approximately 50% of the projected sales numbers for these coins. Any dates on shipping boxes containing uncirculated bullion coins sent to Authorized Purchasers are strictly for quality control and accounting purposes at the United States Mint at West Point. The date on the box represents the date that the box was packed, verified as 500 ounces and sealed, and the date of packaging does not necessarily correlate with the date of manufacture. The date on shipping labels and packing slips for proof coins, which are sent directly to United States Mint customers from our fulfillment center, is the date the item was packed and shipped by the fulfillment center. The other numbers on the shipping label and packing slip are used to track the order and for quality control. "
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • The First Strike designation did kind of throw me, too, given that it does not seem to carry any specific significance other than timing, since modern coins have such high precision and uniformity. I could see "First Strike" 1878 Morgans being significant, those with the VAM varieties tracked down to the first dies used by the mint back then. But, First Strikes today seem only meaningful if in the first week or so of production they catch a misplaced letter, giving rise to a famous "In Odd We Trust" variant.

    Even more disturbing is the use of the term "brilliant uncirculated" by either of the main grading services. "BU" is generally a phrase used by cheap vendors who also paint in color or laser holograms on silver eagles and sell statehood quarters coated in a layer of genuine 24 karat gold. When I see "BU" in one of those magazine ads, I read it to mean "Bull**** Uncirculated." Seeing it on a PCGS or NGC holder is like seeing Park Place Lexus putting out a giant inflatable purple gorilla on their car lot. (Yes, they do the big bows every Christmas, but it's still done in a way that is tasteful and sophisticated.)
    Improperly Cleaned, Our passion for numismatics is Genuine! Now featuring correct spelling.


  • << <i>You go to a lot of effort to blame the sellers; why not blame the companies that continue to produce these items?

    Here's the Mint's view of FS:

    " The United States Mint has received inquiries from consumers regarding use of the term "first strike." The term has appeared in connection with the advertising and grading of 2005 and 2006 silver, gold, and platinum proof and bullion American Eagle Coins, and the new 2006 24-karat proof and bullion American Buffalo Gold Coins. Currently, there is no widely-accepted and standardized numismatic industry definition of "first strike." Coin dealers and grading services may use this term in varying ways. Some base its use on dates appearing on United States Mint product packaging or packing slips, or on the dates of product releases or ceremonial coin strike events. Consumers should carefully review the following information along with each dealer’s or grading service’s definition of "first strike" when considering a purchase of coins with this designation.

    The United States Mint has not designated any 2005 or 2006 American Eagle Coins or 2006 American Buffalo Coins as "first strikes," nor do we track the order in which we mint such coins during their production. The United States Mint held a launch ceremony for the 2006 American Buffalo Gold Coin on June 20, 2006, two days before its release on June 22, at which two proof coins and two uncirculated coins were ceremonially struck. However, those coins were not individually identified and were put in regular inventory after the ceremony. The United States Mint did not hold any striking ceremonies for the 2005 or 2006 American Eagle Coins.

    The United States Mint strives to produce coins of consistently high quality throughout the course of production. Our strict quality controls assure that coins of this caliber are produced from each die set throughout its useful life. Our manufacturing facilities use a die set as long as the quality of resulting coins meets United States Mint standards, and then replace the dies, continually changing sets throughout the production process. For bullion American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins, the United States Mint makes an average of about 6,000 coins from one die set. For proof versions of the 2006 American Buffalo Coins, the yield is an average of about 1,500 coins per die set. For proof versions of the American Eagle Coins, the yield is an average of about 300-500 coins per die set. This means that coins may be minted from new die sets at any point and at multiple times while production of a coin is ongoing, not just the first day or at the beginning of production. To put this in context, in 2005 the United States Mint produced approximately 356,500 one-ounce gold, 8,891,000 silver, and 6,300 one-ounce platinum American Eagle Bullion Coins.

    American Eagle and American Buffalo Coins are not individually numbered and the United States Mint does not keep track of the order or date of minting of individual bullion or proof coins. The United States Mint begins production several weeks before these coins are scheduled to be released. By the release dates for 2005 and 2006 bullion coins, the United States Mint had already minted approximately 50% of the projected sales numbers for these coins. Any dates on shipping boxes containing uncirculated bullion coins sent to Authorized Purchasers are strictly for quality control and accounting purposes at the United States Mint at West Point. The date on the box represents the date that the box was packed, verified as 500 ounces and sealed, and the date of packaging does not necessarily correlate with the date of manufacture. The date on shipping labels and packing slips for proof coins, which are sent directly to United States Mint customers from our fulfillment center, is the date the item was packed and shipped by the fulfillment center. The other numbers on the shipping label and packing slip are used to track the order and for quality control. " >>



    I don't mean to blame anyone outside of the grading industry NGC and PCGS who created the category. It's just that when one goes to ebay and does a search for a particular silver one dollar coin there are still alot of "sellers" (for lack of a better term) who are offering the coins up for auction in "First Strikes"slabs. I assume that most of the more experienced sellers know about the controversy but I e-mailed a seller with over 1000 in feedback who was offering up "First Strikes" and I mentioned the controversy to him, he claimed to know nothing about it. He then said he was pulling all his "First Strikes" coins off auction. I recommended that he not do that and get stuck with coins he purchased due to a problem caused by NGC and PCGS.
    I thought he should read the articles on the subject then make changes to his descriptions that also mentions the issue concerning "First Strikes".

    If some feel I was too heavy handed concerning dealers and not those who actually created the problem, here's your chance to set the record straight.
    I desire to make this an open and fair discussion that will help clear some confusion on the subject of "First Strikes" and hopefully set the record straight while at the same time be an educational topic for the novice collector such as myself.
    It is not meant to be an adversarial topic thread.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭
    First Strike is simply a marketing program which adds difference to an otherwise boring bullion coin.
    The First Strike term has been around for many, many years and was perhaps misused in this particular instance as Early Release or First Release would have been more appropriate. But.......neither was chosen and NGC was "forced" to adopt the Early Release label through litigation. PCGS continues with the label and indicates on the reverse that the term means "Delivered within the first 30 Days of Release."

    The program started in 2005 with much fanfare and high submissions. Again, presumably by dealers. Submissions remain high and there are many folks that do collect these slabs either for personal preference of to add to their First Strike registries.

    A couple of questions did arise when the program was started though. The first was "how can you prove these were actually First Strike? and the second was probably what "proof" of deliver would PCGS accept for determining "Delivered within 30 days of Release"?

    The first question led to litigation against NGC while the second quastion led to many dealers submitting green monster boxes (as received and still sealed from the mint) that they knew had been delivered within the first 30 days of release. Each box has a dated inspection sheet. If that inspection date falls before Jan 30th of the year of issue, then the coins qualify for First Strike™.

    This has led to Silver Eagles being slabbed as First Strike as far back as 1988. Finding original pre-Jan 30th Monster boxes can be difficult and expensive and the retail sales prices usually reflect that expense.



    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
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