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Did the Mint strike Proofs of the Isabella quarter?

DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
I've read that the Isabella quarter had an official mintage of 103 Proofs.

Is there, in fact, any official Mint record of Proofs being struck? And in that particular quantity?


Comments

  • renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I know a dealer who claims to own one. She brought it to a show and tried to have PCGS grade it as such. She has told me this story at least twice, as the overly cautious PCGS graders, after telling her that there were no proofs made of the issue, dropped the coin, sending it skittering across the bourse floor. Maybe one day I'll ask her to bring the coin out of hiding and let me have a look. It should be easy to tell the difference between a proof and an MS coin.
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
    I think NGC at least does grade some as Proof.

    Linque

  • renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just read the entire coinfacts page on the Isabella Quarter. Fascinating piece. Total mintage of 40,023 pieces, with 23 for assay purposes. 15,809 were melted. No mention of proof issues. There is an essentially blank coinfacts page for the proof issue, with no documentation whatsoever, save for the mention of a few pieces graded proof by ANACS and NGC being sold at auction through Heritage or Bowers. There is also a listing of a single PCGS PR65 in the census listing. I wonder if that coin exists. image
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭
    PCGS used to grade Proofs, but stopped. NGC still will grade Proofs.

    From LeeG's Commem posting:

    Estimates of somewhere between 40 to 100 proof struck coins were made in addition to the 3 special documented proof quarters. The three special documented proofs were coins #400 (for the 400th anniversary of Columbus discovering America), #1492 (the year of Columbus’s discovery), and #1892 (for the anniversary year). These special proofs were presented to the ‘Board of Lady Managers.’

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • renomedphysrenomedphys Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭✭✭
    O.K. I just checked the pop reports, and it shows a total of four graded as proof. 2 in PR58, 1 in PR62, and 1 in PR65. Now I have to wonder if they are truly real. According to coinfacts:



    << <i>Production of the Isabella quarter dollars began at the Philadelphia Mint on June 13, 1893. The 1st, 400th, 1492nd, and 1892nd strikings were reserved with certificates, and the same were sent to the Board of Lady Managers in Chicago. Unlike the Columbian half dollars, the Isabella quarters seem to have been handled with a degree of care at the Mint, for contact marks and abrasions were minimal on specimens delivered to the distributor. At the Exposition they were offered for sale for $1 each. >>



    To me, this suggests that, as with many other issues, it might be difficult to distinguish between proofs and business strikings. If several dies were used to produce the entire quantity of coins issued, it could be that one die in particular was more carefully prepared than the others, and could be the source for the "proofs". It would seem to me that a careful study should reveal proof characteristics not present in business strikes, but the history of this issue and the care taken to produce it may suggest that it would be impossible to tell. Your original question about official mint records really cuts right to the heart of the matter.
  • LeeGLeeG Posts: 12,162
    In "The Authoritative Reference on Commemorative Coins, 1892-1954", Kevin Flynn writes:

    Proofs: Like the Columbian Half Dollars, 100 coins were struck as brilliant proofs. It is not known if the 1st, 400th, 1492nd, and 1892nd, coins were struck as proofs. It is believed that these coins were documented by the Mint and sent to the Board of Lady Managers in Chicago. There is little in the way of archive documents regarding the Isabella Quarter proofs, whereas there was several documents regarding the Columbian Half Dollars. Genuine proofs show evidence of a deep impression, they should have wire rims, squared edges, and proof-like surfaces.



    Mint Director Leech in a letter to Ms. Palmer, dtd April 24, 1893, writes in part: I feel quite sure that the designs selected will be both suitable and artistic and will make a very beautiful coin. It is my intention to have these pieces struck specially - in as high relief as possible - and on polished planchets, so as to give as beautiful a lot of coins as the mint is capable of executing.


    Supt of Phil Mint, O. C. Bobbyshell in a letter to Ms. Palmer, dtd May 18, 1893, writes in part: Replying to your telegram of this date I beg to state that we will gladly comply with your wish to keep separate the first five, the 400th, 1492nd, and the 1892nd Souvenir Quarters, and we will also reserve the last one of the 40,000th.


    There were two Obverse and two Reverse dies used during the production run.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623
    Julian always has a Proof set of the Columbian issues ( the two 50c and the 25c) for big money at his table at all the big shows. There is little doubt in my mind that they are proof
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
    Doesn't it seem odd that no official Mint records exist, though?


  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623


    << <i>Doesn't it seem odd that no official Mint records exist, though? >>



    yes and no. Let's not for get that they were the first comm issue and it takes the government a little while to perfect a process. I bet the money came form a different pot and they were handled differently then reg coinage
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭
    But they weren't the first commems... by then the World's Columbian Exposition half dollar had already been struck, including in Proof format.

  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    A quarter is small enough that one could mimic a mirror proof by polishing the dies and using polished planchets. They would have to be struck at unusually high pressure, and caught on a cloth or towel-lined bin, but it would have been “doable.” Quality would likely be inferior to medal press work, but virtually no one would be able to detect the differences.

    Compare an 1893 mirror proof quarter with an alleged proof Isabella. Medal press Isabella would be identical in physical characteristics on all three sides.

    Just some random thoughts.
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    The mint had nothing to gain by striking medal press mirror proofs of either the half or quarter. Normal collectors’ proofs were sold at a premium and profited the mint. These two pieces were required to be delivered at face value. The extra time and effort to strike medal press proofs brought nothing to the mint’s coffers.

    As for documentation, I wouldn’t expect much since the “mirror proofs” if any, created no extra revenue that had to be tracked. The half dollar documents sometimes refer to “proof” and sometimes to “specimen” and other terms implying something “special” but not necessarily a real mirror proof.

    Lastly, as to the reserved coins for “… the 1st, 400th, 1492nd, and 1892nd…” coins struck. Coining dept staff would not necessarily have counted to “one,” or “four hundred,” etc. That specific coin might have been defective (as noted in other situations), so a different strike would have been selected and placed in a numbered envelope. It is only the envelope notation that supports the coin being a particular strike number. ( I seem to recall the first Columbian half being defective and discarded. The next coin was then designated “#1.”)

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