1882 Wm. Penn/Pennsylvania Bicentennial Medal

jonathanb

I originally posted most of this in an earlier thread nearly three years ago, but most of the other pictures from that thread are gone, and it would be just confusing to ttt it.

This is what Julian has to say about this US Mint medal:

"
These medals were originally struck in brass for distribution during the parade of October 24, 1882. Elaborate plans were made by a special committee of mint officers and workmen headed by Coiner Oliver C. Bosbyshell to have 250 men specially dressed in the parade line. There was to be a wagon drawn by six horses, carrying a steam press, from which newly-struck medals would be thrown to the crowds. Bosbyshell arranged for 50,000 brass planchets while the official city committee subscribed for another 25,000. All 75,000 were struck and distributed. These were, of course, unbronzed, but pieces struck since that time (in the mint), for sale to collectors, have had the regular bronzing applied after striking.

There was considerable newspaper publicity about the medals being struck during the parade and collectors from around the country made application to Superintendent Snowden for the medals. At first these applications were refused, but it is probably that the mint began striking them for sale because of the demand.

Two gold and one hundred silver medals were reported in the fiscal 1883 report.
"


This is a silver version. In addition to nicely mirrored cameo surfaces, it has a very square edge. I bought this raw and it is now slabbed as PF-65.



This one is an odd duck. The surfaces are very smooth and the lettering is sharp, but the edges are not square. The chocolate brown color is typical of 19th century US Mint products. My best guess is that this might be one of the "pieces struck since that time (in the mint) for sale to collectors, [which] have had the regular bronzing applied after striking."



This is the first of this pieces that I purchased, almost 5 years ago. It's clearly Unc rather than Proof, but much nicer than these are usually found. If you asked me, though, I would say that the coloring looks more like copper than brass. I assume that it really is one of the 75,000 brass pieces that Julian describes, but I can't account for the coloring.



This one is another odd duck, and the reason for posting today. I bought it on eBay from a mediocre picture without knowing what I was bidding on. From the eBay picture, it certainly looked like it was in better-than-average condition, and that's why I bid. The color in the eBay picture seemed odd -- too yellow for a regular 1882 brass version (above), and also too yellow for a modern restrike (below). I figured the colors were simply off... but nope! I reshot this one and the modern one (below) today with exactly the same lighting, and you can see that the colors really are different. The lettering on this one is much sharper than on the modern one, and the fields are smooth. As far as I can tell, it must be a gilt bronze 1882 strike. Julian doesn't list any of these in gilt bronze, and I don't have any auction records either. The lack of auction records isn't totally surprising -- it's easy to assume this is a normal 1882 strike or a modern restrike unless you have them all to compare side by side... as in this post, for example...



This one clearly is brass, but not of 1882 vintage. This is the "yellow brass" that is typical of 20th century ("modern") US Mint restrikes. The surfaces are uniformly matte across the design, lettering, and fields.




Anyone know where I can get one of the two gold specimens?

jonathan

farthing

johnathan - while I know nothing of this medal, I just wanted to say that you post some of the most interesting material on these boards and that I really appreciate them!

keets

is the silver the one you got from me or a different one??

jonathanb

<< <i>is the silver the one you got from me or a different one?? >>

The silver one is ex-Heritage 9/16/2006, lot 6377. I overpaid massively, but it is really really nice.

I don't think I bought one of these medals from you, keets. I do have record of buying a Philadelphia Commercial Museum medal from you, with a similar Philadelphia city seal motif. That's the closest match I can find. Maybe that's what you're thinking of, or maybe you sold to a different buyer?

coinsarefun

Has there been any updates to the only you thought was gilt brass? @jonathanb
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I bought one and as soon as I opened it I was thinking gild brass. I honestly do not know enough about these.
Can some help and explain what I have? The reverse has proof like fields

Zoins

This top pop PCGS MS66+ RD bronze example as a distinctly reeddish color. It was sold in December, 2018. I ran across it a while back and thought it was worth posting to compare the photos with @jonathanb's specimens above.

Zoins

Here's my gilt specimen.

Love your prooflike @coinsarefun ! It looks along the lines of @jonathanb's silver proof

coinsarefun

Thanks so much @Zoins So there is a gilt brass. I never seen it listed.
Does mine look gilt to you? Are these more rare?

coinsarefun

Here is a comparison of all gold gilt for comparison.
Mine does have a proof like look to it but it may be a common thing
@jonathanb (left) mine (middle) and yours @zoins (right)
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Zoins

I would love to get these in other compositions.

Here are some silver ones I've run across:

• NGC MS65: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ngc-ms65-extremely-silver-1882-dated-1728040398
• Raw: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/s-mint-medal-william-penn-1882-504618663
• Raw: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/1009317_1208-1882-pennsylvania-bicentennial-medal

coinsarefun

I need to start looking for the silver @Zoins Thanks for the links.
Now I just need to figure out what mine is.

coinsarefun

I was able to pick up a J-CM-42 Bronze Pennsylvania Bicentennial PCGS MS65BN
Now need the silver.
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Zoins

Congrats Stef! The colors look nice on that one!

I have the bronze ICG MS67 Pennsylvania Cabinet specimen. I just saw it again while going though my collection and was able to make a mental note of it. I wish I picked up more pieces from that sale.

Wonderful medals!

coinsarefun

@Zoins said:
Congrats Stef! The colors look nice on that one!

I have the bronze ICG MS67 Pennsylvania Cabinet specimen. I just saw it again while going though my collection and was able to make a mental note of it. I wish I picked up more pieces from that sale.

Wonderful medals!

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Thanks so much. A silly question.....are these re-strikes? I tried looking up numbers and they are considered re-strikes.
What did the originals look like?

MedalCollector

@coinsarefun said:

@Zoins said:
Congrats Stef! The colors look nice on that one!

I have the bronze ICG MS67 Pennsylvania Cabinet specimen. I just saw it again while going though my collection and was able to make a mental note of it. I wish I picked up more pieces from that sale.

Wonderful medals!

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Thanks so much. A silly question.....are these re-strikes? I tried looking up numbers and they are considered re-strikes.
What did the originals look like?

I would consider yours an original. Any that have the sandblasted finish are those that are generally considered restrikes.

coinsarefun

@GoldenEgg said:

@coinsarefun said:

@Zoins said:
Congrats Stef! The colors look nice on that one!

I have the bronze ICG MS67 Pennsylvania Cabinet specimen. I just saw it again while going though my collection and was able to make a mental note of it. I wish I picked up more pieces from that sale.

Wonderful medals!

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Thanks so much. A silly question.....are these re-strikes? I tried looking up numbers and they are considered re-strikes.
What did the originals look like?

I would consider yours an original. Any that have the sandblasted finish are those that are generally considered restrikes.

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Ah, okay.I thought so as mine does not say restrike, But one never knows. Thx!

MedalCollector

I’ve owned 3 in silver, but none of them were in a condition that I thought worth keeping.

The real prize is the bronzed version posted above, or the gold, if you can find them.

There is also another commemorative token that uses the same central portrait of Penn that is difficult to come by. I believe it may have been a private striking by George Soley. If I find a picture of mine, I will post it.

coinsarefun

Thanks @GoldenEgg please post it if you can I have a Ferracute one that has the arms which is cool.
Also, not sure but this one might be a gilt one.
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Zoins

@GoldenEgg said:
I’ve owned 3 in silver, but none of them were in a condition that I thought worth keeping.

The real prize is the bronzed version posted above, or the gold, if you can find them.

There is also another commemorative token that uses the same central portrait of Penn that is difficult to come by. I believe it may have been a private striking by George Soley. If I find a picture of mine, I will post it.

Great info.

I think @jonathanb 's silver in the original post looks awesome. I would love to have one of that quality. I haven't seen many others. Do you have photos of your silvers?

The bronze Sarasota-specimen looks great from the photo. It has a very warm color / toning to it. I haven't seen a gold yet. Have you ever seen one? I need to get some good photos of my Pennsylvania Cabinet specimeen.

The gilt ones are nice to me as well, especially in good condition. Top condition in any composition seems to be rare for these, except perhaps the restrikes.

NumisOxide

Very informative post! Didn’t know these were struck in other compositions.

Zoins

Here's the Virgil Brand bronze specimen:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1882-Dated-Pennsylvania-Brass-Bicentennial-Token-NGC-MS-63/114073351451?

Jimnight

Nice!

Zoins

First TrueView I've run across. Would love to get some TrueViews of mine

MedalCollector

@Zoins said:
First TrueView I've run across. Would love to get some TrueViews of mine

The tag on this particular example states that it is a restrike. I would tend to disagree. Did they get it wrong?

Zoins

@GoldenEgg said:

@Zoins said:
First TrueView I've run across. Would love to get some TrueViews of mine

The tag on this particular example states that it is a restrike. I would tend to disagree. Did they get it wrong?

Agree it doesn't look like a restrike to me. I expect restrikes to have a flat yellow color like on the First Steam Coining Press pieces.

MedalCollector

@coinsarefun @Zoins

Here is the piece that I had written about. As you can see, a similar Penn obverse was used. Possibly a George Soley piece?

coinsarefun

@GoldenEgg said:
@coinsarefun @Zoins

Here is the piece that I had written about. As you can see, a similar Penn obverse was used. Possibly a George Soley piece?

>

No w that is extremely interesting. I hope someone comes along and can offer help

Zoins

@jonathanb said:
Anyone know where I can get one of the two gold specimens?

It would have been great if Virgil Brand had one! Here are photos of his specimen from Wildman Coins.

The previous link I posted above isn't active any more so it's nice to have the photos here for posterity.

Zoins

@jonathanb said:
This is what Julian has to say about this US Mint medal:

"
[...]
There was considerable newspaper publicity about the medals being struck during the parade and collectors from around the country made application to Superintendent Snowden for the medals. At first these applications were refused, but it is probably that the mint began striking them for sale because of the demand.

Is there any reference to which newspaper(s) published this? It would be great to read the contemporary material on these!

tokenpro

I picked up a Golden Egg quality silver piece in one of the lots I bought at Central States along with some related modern Mint material. It was a heavy carry-on for the trip back.

Zoins

@tokenpro said:
I picked up a Golden Egg quality silver piece in one of the lots I bought at Central States along with some related modern Mint material. It was a heavy carry-on for the trip back.

Very nice! Great to see another silver!

Zoins

@GoldenEgg said:
@coinsarefun @Zoins

Here is the piece that I had written about. As you can see, a similar Penn obverse was used. Possibly a George Soley piece?

The bust certainly looks familiar and similar!

I think it could be a Soley piece given his connections to the Mint. I'm not sure how to definitively identify the minter, but is Soley more likely than any other given his access and the style of his other pieces?

StrikeOutXXX

@Zoins said:

@jonathanb said:
This is what Julian has to say about this US Mint medal:

"
[...]
There was considerable newspaper publicity about the medals being struck during the parade and collectors from around the country made application to Superintendent Snowden for the medals. At first these applications were refused, but it is probably that the mint began striking them for sale because of the demand.

Is there any reference to which newspaper(s) published this? It would be great to read the contemporary material on these!

Found these:

This one said 150,000 to be struck
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83008556/1882-10-19/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1882&index=0&rows=20&words=medals+Mint&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=Pennsylvania&date2=1882&proxtext=mint+medal&y=10&x=15&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

This one says the 75,000 to be struck:
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83032300/1882-10-20/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1882&sort=date&rows=20&words=mint+States+United&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=17&state=Pennsylvania&date2=1882&proxtext=united+states+mint&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

Another with the 150,000 story:
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83032041/1882-10-06/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1882&sort=date&rows=20&words=Mint+States+United&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=14&state=Pennsylvania&date2=1882&proxtext=united+states+mint&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

150,000:
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83032103/1882-10-05/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1882&index=2&rows=20&words=medals+Mint+States+United&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1882&proxtext=united+states+mint+medals&y=12&x=18&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

There are a few others from other states basically rerunning the 150,000 story word for word. I could only find the 75,000 in the one article. Julian probably found records from the Mint showing 75,000 as the more reliable number I would guess, newspapers only show so much and are repeated without much checking.

Edit to add a more generic without any number mentioned
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83032041/1882-09-08/ed-1/seq-2/#date1=1882&index=2&rows=20&words=Band+Marine+Washington&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=Pennsylvania&date2=1882&proxtext=marine+band+of+washington&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

StrikeOutXXX

Here is a letter from Bosbyshell to Snowden on Oct 14, 1882 explaining in a bit more detail what they had planned for the parade.

Scroll to the end it's been transcribed, but mentions the 50,000 + 25,000 additional.

https://archive.org/details/pennlandingbicentennialcom18821017/mode/2up

MedalCollector

@tokenpro said:
I picked up a Golden Egg quality silver piece in one of the lots I bought at Central States along with some related modern Mint material. It was a heavy carry-on for the trip back.

I certainly hope the term “Golden Egg quality” doesn't come to mean anything on these forums. I already need a forum name change!

You would think that these would have been more well preserved, considering that they were “sold to collectors”. Nice pick up!

MedalCollector

@Zoins said:

@GoldenEgg said:
@coinsarefun @Zoins

Here is the piece that I had written about. As you can see, a similar Penn obverse was used. Possibly a George Soley piece?

The bust certainly looks familiar and similar!

I think it could be a Soley piece given his connections to the Mint. I'm not sure how to definitively identify the minter, but is Soley more likely than any other given his access and the style of his other pieces?

Considering that he was known for reducing US Mint designs for his own creations, I would think that it is likely, but at this point I don’t think there’s any evidence to know for sure. Its also roughly 25mm in diameter and gilt, a form that Soley often used.

On the other hand, by 1892 the design was already almost 10 years old, and the bicentennial medal was probably a well known medal among folks in Philadelphia and greater Pennsylvania. It’s possible that other engravers took note and reused it because of its popularity, or that the customer requested this specific design when they commissioned a die sinker - not necessarily Soley - to do the work.

Zoins

@GoldenEgg said:

@tokenpro said:
I picked up a Golden Egg quality silver piece in one of the lots I bought at Central States along with some related modern Mint material. It was a heavy carry-on for the trip back.

I certainly hope the term “Golden Egg quality” doesn't come to mean anything on these forums. I already need a forum name change!

You would think that these would have been more well preserved, considering that they were “sold to collectors”. Nice pick up!

I was wondering what "Golden Egg quality" meant here. To me, I think of "Golden Egg quality photography" as I think your photos are outstanding.

This is an interesting piece given the condition. Would be great to get it graded with a TrueView.

Zoins

@GoldenEgg said:

@Zoins said:

@GoldenEgg said:
@coinsarefun @Zoins

Here is the piece that I had written about. As you can see, a similar Penn obverse was used. Possibly a George Soley piece?

The bust certainly looks familiar and similar!

I think it could be a Soley piece given his connections to the Mint. I'm not sure how to definitively identify the minter, but is Soley more likely than any other given his access and the style of his other pieces?

Considering that he was known for reducing US Mint designs for his own creations, I would think that it is likely, but at this point I don’t think there’s any evidence to know for sure. Its also roughly 25mm in diameter and gilt, a form that Soley often used.

On the other hand, by 1892 the design was already almost 10 years old, and the bicentennial medal was probably a well known medal among folks in Philadelphia and greater Pennsylvania. It’s possible that other engravers took note and reused it because of its popularity, or that the customer requested this specific design when they commissioned a die sinker - not necessarily Soley - to do the work.

It could be worth considering who would be the other candidate engravers that reduced US Mint work and did these sorts of medals.

MikeeVee

Maybe it's just an autistic quirk of mine, however I have noticed that no one seems to be mentioning that the eyes of Penn are looking in a completely different direction on exactly one example in this thread. @zoins copy shown in the one with 3 side by side gilt examples is looking directly at us. None of the rest are doing so and even the face itself hasn't been turned or modified, just the pupils in the eyes on that particular one are looking right at us, which, to be frank, is a little creepy to me. I don't know of maybe it's a counterfeit replica or just an EXTREMELY rare variety. I have one of these medals I acquired recently that seems to be the modern yellow brass restrike, and even mine is looking off into distance to the left. I have yet to go back to the original discussion about the larger "dollar" versions to verify my findings, however I'm surprised no one has noticed this yet. I'll include photos of my specimen which I'm fairly certain is a yellow brass modern restrike just to add to the discussion with another entry of this medal in quite decent condition. (I would be amazed if mine was somehow an 1882 original and I'm sad that there's not really a way to distinguish between a restrike medal and an original other than maybe a color comparison or a metals composition analysis by an xray machine.)