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William Sheldon and the 1958 DDO
iras4
Posts: 300
The late William Sheldon, a giant in the annals of large cent collecting, considered coins with a population of 1-6 to be non-collectible. Even the famous Stawberry Leaf variety, of which there are four known, if memory serves, are considered NC. Sheldon was the father of the 70 point grading systems used throught the coin industry and was an assiduous researcher. Yet, although folks did have, from time to time, one of the rare NCs, these coins were not considered part of the 200+ varieties of the 1793-1814 large cents series.
Futhermore, the 1941 DDO, of which 39 have been graded by PCGS, and which, along with the 1909 VDB DDO and the 1909 S over horiz. S, are all 4 star rated by Fivaz and Stanton in the Cherrypickers Guide, which means there is strong collector interest, was inexplicably deleted from the major variety set, downgrading at least 25 of the paricipants registered in that series.
But it gets worse! The 1958 DDO, of which there are only 3 and a coin which by Sheldon's parameters, would have been an NC, benefited two out of 93 participants in the 1909-1968 Major Variety set and penalized the remaining 91 particpants. Plus, theere are other collecting the varieties such as the 1909-to date and other permutaions of that set, probably penalizing another 50! These collectors will NEVER be able to complete the set. A set that WAS,heretofor, fully completable, especially since many used circulated pieces in their sets, especially for the tougher varieties.
If any one of the first 6 or 7 sets in that series were to acquire the sole remaing 1958 DDO (if indeed there are actually three of them) they would displace the ECM collection. The value of any set in this Registry or any other for that matter is heavily penalized by missing a single coin, yet that is what has been done, with essentailly no possibility that anyone elsecan never complete the set. In the copper Nickel Silver Type set, there are several really tough varieties, such as the 1839 stars obverse Gobrecht Dollar Original, the 1793 beaded border Liberty Cap Cent and the 1792 Half Disme. Yet, the set COULD be 100% complete (although expensive to do so) because these three coins are available at least several times a year. Not so with the 1958 DDO.
What are we to make of this event? What's more puzzling, even though this thead and others on this topic, and I'm sure, various email was sent to the "Deciders," these Deciders have been mum on these issues. It's demoralizing for colelctors as well as dealers, to realize that decisions can be made that have far reaching implications, yet while fully correctible, nothing is done and no explanations are made. BJ Searles and Jaime Hernandez have been contacted and they stated that the decision has been made. Why? Why no response from the key Deciders?
Ira
Futhermore, the 1941 DDO, of which 39 have been graded by PCGS, and which, along with the 1909 VDB DDO and the 1909 S over horiz. S, are all 4 star rated by Fivaz and Stanton in the Cherrypickers Guide, which means there is strong collector interest, was inexplicably deleted from the major variety set, downgrading at least 25 of the paricipants registered in that series.
But it gets worse! The 1958 DDO, of which there are only 3 and a coin which by Sheldon's parameters, would have been an NC, benefited two out of 93 participants in the 1909-1968 Major Variety set and penalized the remaining 91 particpants. Plus, theere are other collecting the varieties such as the 1909-to date and other permutaions of that set, probably penalizing another 50! These collectors will NEVER be able to complete the set. A set that WAS,heretofor, fully completable, especially since many used circulated pieces in their sets, especially for the tougher varieties.
If any one of the first 6 or 7 sets in that series were to acquire the sole remaing 1958 DDO (if indeed there are actually three of them) they would displace the ECM collection. The value of any set in this Registry or any other for that matter is heavily penalized by missing a single coin, yet that is what has been done, with essentailly no possibility that anyone elsecan never complete the set. In the copper Nickel Silver Type set, there are several really tough varieties, such as the 1839 stars obverse Gobrecht Dollar Original, the 1793 beaded border Liberty Cap Cent and the 1792 Half Disme. Yet, the set COULD be 100% complete (although expensive to do so) because these three coins are available at least several times a year. Not so with the 1958 DDO.
What are we to make of this event? What's more puzzling, even though this thead and others on this topic, and I'm sure, various email was sent to the "Deciders," these Deciders have been mum on these issues. It's demoralizing for colelctors as well as dealers, to realize that decisions can be made that have far reaching implications, yet while fully correctible, nothing is done and no explanations are made. BJ Searles and Jaime Hernandez have been contacted and they stated that the decision has been made. Why? Why no response from the key Deciders?
Ira
Dealer/old-time collector
0
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Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
WS
Gerry being knocked out of the top spot, due to the inclusion of the 58 DDO, maybe hasn't been fully mentioned. But, in my house The
Thomas Irwin Collection is still #1. His set deservedly has the 2009 champion icon next to it. Just because you change the rules, after the game is over, is not grounds to crown a new champion. Heck, I wouldn't even want to be #1, under these circumstances. JMO, and I know
some will not agree.
RegistryNut
With all due respect, SO WHAT?
I love my Pattern Nickel set (including my pattern Liberty nickel registry set) - a set that will be impossible to finish unless museums start selling their coins, many of which are UNIQUE.
"Completion" is very overrated IMHO. The 1958 DDO cent truly deserves to be there I believe.
Wondercoin
<< <i>"These collectors will NEVER be able to complete the set"
With all due respect, SO WHAT?
I love my Pattern Nickel set (including my pattern Liberty nickel registry set) - a set that will be impossible to finish unless museums start selling their coins, many of which are UNIQUE.
"Completion" is very overrated IMHO. The 1958 DDO cent truly deserves to be there I believe.
Wondercoin >>
Mitch,
I believe most Lincoln Cent collectors, adult collectors I mean, have an expectation of completing sets, whether it's raw coins in an album or slabbed coins in a Registry. That's been my experience after many years as a dealer and many, many decades as a collector. In fact, at least a dozen collectors in out of 93 in the Registry with Variety set had done exactly that. Now, these folks were on an upgrade path. Now, the rug has been pulled out from under them and they have no hope if ever completing the set. Considerable business has been comprmised by the two changes made, changes that benefitted two to the detriment of about 140.
So you don't agree because you personally collect esoteric patterns, good for you. You went into thar arena with no expectation of ever co
pleting that series. Lincoln cent colletors did not.
the pop charts for 1958 DDO show 3 graded by PCGS
the pop charts from ANACS show 2 graded both MS 64 RD, DIE 1
I am not a lincoln collector, but are they the same
how many does NGC have in there pop charts
just curious
<< <i>
Mitch,
I believe most Lincoln Cent collectors, adult collectors I mean, have an expectation of completing sets, whether it's raw coins in an album or slabbed coins in a Registry. That's been my experience after many years as a dealer and many, many decades as a collector. In fact, at least a dozen collectors in out of 93 in the Registry with Variety set had done exactly that. Now, these folks were on an upgrade path. Now, the rug has been pulled out from under them and they have no hope if ever completing the set. Considerable business has been comprmised by the two changes made, changes that benefitted two to the detriment of about 140.
So you don't agree because you personally collect esoteric patterns, good for you. You went into thar arena with no expectation of ever co
pleting that series. Lincoln cent colletors did not. >>
I'm not trying to complete a slabbed set of business strike Lincoln cents so this particular issue doesn't effect me, BUT I am trying to complete a set of Lincoln proof strikes with Major varieties and I would be very very upset if a rarity had only three or five coins IN EXISTENCE and they were required. So, I do hope that PCGS will add back the 41DD and let the 58DD be a "display only" coin which does NOT count in the weightings or completion percentage. Those that own one can proudly show it, but it would NOT affect standing or anything else. JMHO. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
But, to be consistent, you can not refuse to honor the 58 DDO cent with required status, so Lincoln cent collectors can complete a set, while allowing in these types of coins in every other series (classic and modern) - right? The solution is the "rule of 5". Again, it was a fair method of handling this very issue. I would support the rule to this day for major variety registry sets (and under the rule, the 58 DDO could not become a required registry coin until the 5th coin was uncovered). But, to be honest, I may not be in the majority any longer with this thinking? Although, I do think a fair compromise would be to only have a rule of 5 for the major varieties at this point (i.e. allow coins with pop 1 or 2 for the complete variety sets). Thoughts?
The rule of 5 would address the issues you are concerned about - although I still believe the coin itself is a major variety to be sure.
Wondercoin
I suppose the rule of 5's might work ( 5 known as a variety) as a compromise and that would relegate the 58DDO to the complete varieties set where it rightly belongs. Let's see the 41 DDO added back to the major varities set as well. With 39 graded by PCGS - and more at NGC and ANACS, it rightly desrves a place at the table. I don't believe it should have been removed in the first place as I wrote earlier. Then, if two more 58 DDOs materialize out of thin air, they could be added back into the major varieties set.
Ira
Are you sure there are only 39 41DDO's slabbed by PCGS? I personally slabbed over 25. Are you only counting MSRD?
Wondercoin
But, I strongly object with deleting the 41DDO. It is readily obtainable and has been collected for a long time as a major variety by most collectors. PCGS has been allowing either one of two varieties to fill this slot, and I could understand if they wanted to limit it to just the one variety that is the most dramatic. However, throwing out all of the 41 DDO's is just not right.
It is not going to affect my collecting habits, but I don't think its absence in the set is reflective of what 99% of collectors think a set containing "major varieties" has in it. And that would be the point of having a "major varieties" set, right? I would be surprised in fact if you found one Lincoln cent collector who likes varieties who would not consider the 41DDO a major variety.
<< <i>Ira,
Are you sure there are only 39 41DDO's slabbed by PCGS? I persoinally slabbed over 25. Are you only counting MSRD? >>
Roger, I counted the browns, RBs and Rds and that's what I came up with in the pop reports. But, they have been wrong before. For several weeks the 58DDO was listed as having 61 graded in all. Now it's at three total graded, all Rds: one MS 65 and two MS 64s.
Ira
I find that the lack of retort speaks much. Maybe PCGS bosses are destined for a political career.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ira,
Are you sure there are only 39 41DDO's slabbed by PCGS? I persoinally slabbed over 25. Are you only counting MSRD? >>
Roger, I counted the browns, RBs and Rds and that's what I came up with in the pop reports. But, they have been wrong before. For several weeks the 58DDO was listed as having 61 graded in all. Now it's at three total graded, all Rds: one MS 65 and two MS 64s.
Ira >>
There are many more in grades lower than mint state, I've personally sent in ten or so which all graded in the 40-53 range.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
<< <i>How about a vote of all registry set holders who have a major variety set in any series on this very issue of officially adopting a "rule of 5" for the major variety sets? That would be a very interesting vote to be sure. It would surely be a fair way to resolve this issue - no?
Wondercoin >>
I'd go for that but unfortunately, I don't think PCGS will as they appear to be marching to their own drummer.
As for the Presidential Dollar Sets, it should be noted that each of the "varieties" in the major and complete sets are not really "varieties" but are in fact error's which can only be submitted as error's. The Presidential Dollar Major and Complete Variety sets are the ONLY PCGS Registry Sets which allow you to register a bonafide mint error coin.
There are no Presidential Dollar Varieties, only errors which occured during production which I believe classifies them as "mint errors".
The name is LEE!
A letter concerning this thread and two others regarding recent PCGS decisions that have annoyed many of us has been sent to Don Willis. So if this thread goes Poof, you now know why.
WS
STOP WHINING IRA ! Do you want to buy a 1958 DDO ? I can make the third coin come out of the dark.
Concerning Dr. William Sheldon and the Strawberry Leaf Cent of which there are only 4 known, the large cent collectors do not cry that there are only four known.
That coin is in the Registry as a major variety.
Registry NUT - I had No influence whatsoever in having the 1958 DDO Lincoln cent in the Registry. It does not matter if I am #1 or # 21 in the PCGS Set Registry.
My coins speak for themselves. You sound hung down about the tiny penis syndrome.
Stewart Blay
I will respond to your last reply, but I'll type without your arrogance and conceit. That's important because it directly influences how a Forum member is regarded by others in our group.
Please read my last reply again, so that you can fully interpret what was actually said. The first paragraph of my reply was a quote from a previous reply from shagnasty. That reply does refer to you possibly creating some influence to include the 1958 DDO into the major variety set. If you feel the need to set the record straight on this issue, don't respond directly to me here on the Forum. Respond to the original
poster. Your comment regarding tiny penis syndrome is very childish and unbecoming to your true character. A wise Forum member should always think before they type. I would think a public apology is warranted in this case. Now, can the offender rise above his ego and do the right thing?
RegistryNut
I think it's inclusion in the Major Variety set was grossly unfair, a decision that benefitted two and punished about 140. Ditto the removal of the 1941 DDO. I know YOU agree that the latter coin should not have been deleted. I'd like some cheese with YOUR whine if the 58 DDO is removed from the set as it should be.
By the way, you certainly owe an apology for your small penis remark. Not just to Registry Nut but to all on the forum. It's beneath you. Also, Stewart, the Stawberry Leaf Cent is only in the COMPLETE Variety set, not in the major variety set. That's wherev
the 58 DDO belongs, not in the Major Variety set.
Ira
It's like saying that Beavis and Butthead is a stupid show. Obviously its a SHOW about STUPID PEOPLE.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
REGISTRYNUT - I am NOT saying you have a tiny penis. What I am saying is that I have been collecting PCGS certified Lincoln cents longer than anyone in the Registry and my passion is greater than anyone. Gerry (The Thomas Irwin collection) is a good friend of mine and we meet regularly. FYI he use to say he would never register his set because it would be like comparing the size of our penis. I feel you owe ME an apology for accusing me of influencing the inclusion of the 1958 DDO in the Registry.
IRA - You do not think the 1958 DDO is more valuable than the POS 1926 S you sold to Jack Lee ????
Stewart
<< <i>REGISTRYNUT - I am NOT saying you have a tiny penis. What I am saying is that I have been collecting PCGS certified Lincoln cents longer than anyone in the Registry and my passion is greater than anyone. Gerry (The Thomas Irwin collection) is a good friend of mine and we meet regularly. FYI he use to say he would never register his set because it would be like comparing the size of our penis. I feel you owe ME an apology for accusing me of influencing the inclusion of the 1958 DDO in the Registry.
IRA - You do not think the 1958 DDO is more valuable than the POS 1926 S you sold to Jack Lee ????
Stewart >>
That's an interesting question you pose, Stewart. I guess it would depend upon the buyer. Since the 1958 DDO would have limted appeal, it would be of value mainly to Lincoln Cent afficionados who would pay serious $$ for an oddity, as would people who pay $125,000 for a bronze 1943 1c in MS-61. The 1926-S, which you say is a POS was actually Bob Hughes' coin and Jack Lee wanted it but he and Hughes couldn't come to terms. I merely brokered the transaction between the two and achieved a meeting of the minds. I sold the 1926-S Red in MS-64 to Ron Bozarth that Andy Skrabalak later bought in the Bozath Auction for about $28,000 IIRC and the Lee specmen was far nicer. Was it a MS-65Rd? Who can say? It would be PCGS who would determine that irrespective of what either of us believe. It would have, in my opinion, a far wider audience than would the 1958 DDO. After all, it has a PCGS Pop of only 1, whereas the 58DDO is dirt common with a pop of 3
BTW, I am relieved that you were not casting aspersions at Registynut's little fireman. After all, how would YOU know? But, in all seriousness, the Registry set concept is, after all, a mighty pissing contest, is it not?
I need to think, once again, before I type. You're nuts! I didn't accuse you of anything. Maybe your grandchild or a YN could explain to you, the actual content from my initial reply.
RegistryNut
RegistryNut - This begs the question,How much influence did Stewart have in this PCGS decision ? This is what you wrote. Now I am nuts ?
What is your monica ?????
Ira - IMO the 1958 DDO could be the most valuable Lincoln cent in the Set Registry. I could compare it to the 1944 S steel cent that Legend bought for $370,000.I did pay more than $100,000 for the coin.
Stewart
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>RegistryNut - This begs the question,How much influence did Stewart have in this PCGS decision ? This is what you wrote. Now I am nuts ? What is your monica ?????
Ira - IMO the 1958 DDO could be the most valuable Lincoln cent in the Set Registry. I could compare it to the 1944 S steel cent that Legend bought for $370,000.I did pay more than $100,000 for the coin.
Stewart >>
Stewart,
That is not what I wrote! That is a quote from another reply. The author of that reply is bolivarshagnasty. Go back into this thread and you'll see that I'm correct. His original reply is still there. And you write me back: Now I am nuts? Well, yes if you can't understand such a simple concept. You have insulted the wrong poster. You've made a mistake. Now, admit it and let's move on.
RegistryNut