Helton and the HOF
markj111
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From Baseball Prospectus:
August 13, 2009
Prospectus Hit and Run
How is the Air Up There?
by Jay Jaffe
Tuesday's piece on Todd Helton's Hall of Fame chances was greeted with enough enthusiasm to spur an installment of the Cooperstown Casebook. For a starting point, I want to revisit a line from Tuesday's piece:
"When it finally arrives, Helton's Cooperstown candidacy will be built upon numbers compiled under what have been arguably the most optimal conditions ever afforded a hitter over an extended period of time."
I was hoping to have a bit of data to back up that bold assertion in time for publication, but the quick turnaround of the piece prevented that; in any case it's now in hand. The great Baseball-Reference site offers a statistic called AIR, which indexes the combination of park and league scoring levels into one number to provide an idea of how favorable or unfavorable the conditions a player faced were, scoring-wise. According to the site's definition, AIR "measures the offensive level of the leagues and parks the player played in relative to an all-time average of a .335 OBP and .400 Slugging Percentage. Over 100 indicates a favorable setting for hitters, under 100 a favorable setting for pitchers." Helton's AIR score is 124, meaning that the historical conditions in which he's played have raised offensive levels by 24 percent. As I suspected but could not confirm prior to publication, that's the highest figure of all time. B-R's Sean Forman was kind enough to perform a couple of queries for me in the service of creating this leaderboard, which uses a 4,000 plate appearance cutoff:
Rank Player PA AIR
1 Todd Helton 7494 124
2 Neifi Perez 5365 123
3 Vinny Castilla 7305 120
4 Dante Bichette 6777 118
5 Larry Walker 7958 117
6T Earl Averill* 7160 116
Ski Melillo 5402 116
Rip Radcliff 4398 116
Jeff Cirillo 6026 115
9T Joe Vosmik 6007 115
Max Bishop 5678 115
Mike Lansing 4486 115
Rusty Greer 4370 115
Odell Hale 4057 115
15T Charlie Gehringer* 10096 114
Jimmie Foxx* 9599 114
Bing Miller 6675 114
Mickey Cochrane* 6055 114
Luke Sewell 5896 114
Billy Rogell 5819 114
Bruce Campbell 5337 114
Tony Womack 5299 114
Todd Walker 4991 114
Eric McNair 4805 114
Mule Haas 4749 114
Marv Owen 4147 114
*: Hall of Famer
The top five players all spent considerable time with the Rockies, as did Cirillo, Lansing, and Todd Walker. Additionally, Rockies past and present Terry Shumpert, Garrett Atkins, and Brad Hawpe all come in at 117, but with PA totals in the 2,000-4,000 range. At the 4,000 PA cutoff, Womack, who spent much of his career with the Diamondbacks, and Greer, who spent most of his time with the Rangers, are the only other contemporaries who make this list. The rest spent at least some portion of their careers in the hitter-friendly 1930s except for Campbell, who instead starred in the Evil Dead trilogy and... well, never mind. Note that AIR says nothing about a player's actual performance under those conditions, just whether he had the wind at his back, so to speak, which makes Perez's ineptitude with the stick (.267/.297/.375 career) all the more puzzling. The guy couldn't hit his way out of a wet Kleenex box.
Another way to understand the favorable conditions under which Helton played is to examine the drastic contrast between his career ranking in OPS, which doesn't adjust for scoring context, and in EqA, which does. Using a 3,000 PA cutoff:
Rank Player OPS EqA Rank
1 Babe Ruth 1.164 .363 1
2 Ted Williams 1.116 .359 2
3 Lou Gehrig 1.079 .341 6
4 Albert Pujols 1.056 .347 4
5 Barry Bonds 1.051 .354 3
6 Jimmie Foxx 1.037 .322 24
7 Hank Greenberg 1.017 .321 28
8 Rogers Hornsby 1.011 .337 7
9 Manny Ramirez 1.006 .330 11
10 Todd Helton .997 .307 78
11 Mark McGwire .982 .334 9
12 Mickey Mantle .978 .342 5
13 Joe DiMaggio .977 .326 20
14 Stan Musial .976 .332 10
15 Frank Thomas .974 .336 8
16 Lance Berkman .971 .321 28
17 Larry Walker .965 .303 103
18 Alex Rodriguez .964 .322 24
19 Jim Thome .963 .321 28
20 Johnny Mize .959 .327 17
21 Vladimir Guerrero .958 .314 43
22 Chipper Jones .954 .319 32
23 Jeff Bagwell .948 .322 24
24 Mel Ott .947 .328 14
25 Ralph Kiner .946 .316 37
Two of these players are not like the others, and they both spent enough time in purple that the Bud Grant Vikings are calling. Helton and Walker are the only players among the top 25 in OPS who don't even crack the top 75 in EqA. Indeed, it's almost as if the AIR is what's filling the gap between the two sets of rankings; consider that Foxx (114) and Greenberg (113) fall out of the EqA top 20, as do Berkman (112), Thome (111), Jones (111) and Guerrero (110); the only hitter here who bucks that trend is Ramirez (112).
Coors-inflated numbers are but one problem Helton will face as he strives for Cooperstown. The other will be the fact that he's got no shortage of heavy-hitting contemporaries among the first base/DH set. Here's how his JAWS case stacks up against those with whom his career has significantly overlapped (all stats through 2008). All numbers below refer to last December's build of JAWS, which includes a higher replacement level for hitters than in years past but not the play-by-play-based defensive system Clay Davenport introduced in Baseball Prospectus 2009 to cover the years 2005-2008 (it remains a work in progress going further back). In other words, they don't include 2009 figures yet, which means the EqAs may not match those above:
Player Career Peak JAWS EqA Ballot/Age
Frank Thomas 105.4 66.4 85.9 .336 2014
Jeff Bagwell 97.2 62.8 80.0 .322 2011
Albert Pujols 78.7 71.9 75.3 .345 29
Rafael Palmeiro 96.0 52.6 74.3 .305 2011
Jim Thome 84.7 50.6 67.7 .322 38
Mark McGwire 79.7 52.4 66.1 .334 2007 (21.9%)
John Olerud 79.9 50.2 65.1 .307 2011
Will Clark 74.4 50.2 62.3 .314 2006 (4.4%)
Average HoF 1B 75.8 48.4 62.1 .306
Jason Giambi 64.3 50.3 57.3 .324 38
Fred McGriff 65.6 45.8 55.7 .306 2010
Carlos Delgado 61.3 42.8 52.1 .310 37
Mark Grace 60.2 41.0 50.6 .290 2009 (4.1%)
Todd Helton 54.6 46.1 50.4 .307 35
Lance Berkman 51.0 46.3 48.7 .320 33
The last column shows the year of the first BBWAA ballot appearance for retired players (and his latest vote percentage), or the current ages of those still active.
The Baseball Writers Association of America hasn't given much love to the the players here who have reached the ballot already. They've made an example of the otherwise qualified McGwire by withholding their votes based upon his numerous links to performance-enhancing drugs, and he has yet to clear 25 percent in three years on the ballot, let alone the 75 percent he needs for election. They rejected Clark on his first ballot, a dismaying result given his standing here, but one not altogether unsurprising for a player who hung up his spikes at age 36 with just 2,178 hits and 278 homers to his name. This past winter, they rejected the less-impressive Grace on the first ballot as well.
Things will start to get interesting this winter, when McGriff comes up for a vote in a class that will also include Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin, and Edgar Martinez. Prior to the shaming of McGwire and other long-ball gods, it looked as though the Crime Dog's 493 career home runs might become the new Kingman Line, the mark above which every eligible slugger is in the Hall, replacing the hacktastic Dave Kingman's 442 jacks. Beyond the homers, McGriff's got a somewhat spottier record. He never won an MVP award and had just one top-five finish in the voting. He never won a World Series ring, though he played on two pennant winners and was a staple of the Braves' dynasty, and hit very well in the postseason (.303/.385/.532). He has a dearth of Black Ink, though he does have the distinction of being the last player to lead a league in home runs while hitting less than 40 (both leagues, in fact). Indeed, nostalgia for this pre-inflationary period—a time supposedly before juiced players and juiced baseballs—is expected to enhance his candidacy. His JAWS showing suggests he'll need it, a topic we'll discuss at length in December.
The 2011 ballot will mark the arrival of Bagwell, Palmeiro, and Olerud. Despite being one of just four men in baseball history to collect 3,000 hits and 500 homers, Palmeiro is likely to receive a chilly reception from the BBWAA due to his having tested positive for steroid use, that after his finger-wagging appearance in front of Congress just months before. Even prior to that, voters had reasons to discount his credentials; he never led the league in any major category, never won an MVP or a championship, and played his entire career in hitter's parks (Wrigley Field, Arlington Stadium, the Ballpark at Arlington, and Camden Yards) that have certainly inflated his numbers, though his 106 AIR score suggests it's not by that much. Olerud's fate is more likely to mirror Clark's; his low counting stats (namely 2,239 hits and 255 homers) suggest his batting title and his participation in the Blue Jays' two World Championships (and on a handful of other playoff teams) will be greeted with a collective yawn save for the inevitable retelling of the Rickey Henderson helmet anecdote.
Which leaves Bagwell, a strong candidate despite an injury-curtailed career (just 123 PA after reaching the age of 36), and one whose JAWS case I delved into extensively a few years ago. His JAWS numbers currently place him fourth among all first basemen, more than 20 WARP above the average Hall first baseman for his career, and a solid two WARP per year above the average for his peak. If he doesn't get in, he'll join Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines, Ron Santo, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, and Bobby Grich as one of the real screwjobs in BBWAA history.
From there it will be another three years before Thomas becomes eligible, and while he'll be on an extremely crowded ballot alongside first-timers Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Mike Mussina, and Jeff Kent—not to mention the radioactive fallout from the previous year's Barry Bonds/Roger Clemens/Sammy Sosa triumvirate—there's little argument that the Big Hurt doesn't belong in Cooperstown. With his 521 homers, two MVP awards, a sterling .301/.419/.555 career line, and a reputation as unsullied by the steroid scandals as any superstar of the era, he'll get in.
Beyond that, we're in the realm of active players whose final acts have yet to be written. Thome is positioned at a run for 600 home runs (he's got 562), and whatever the shortcomings of his candidacy in the traditional sense—no MVP awards and a spotty post-season record—he'll have a hell of a lot of long balls to discount, even given the favorable conditions of his era. He's already above the Hall Standard as far as JAWS is concerned, and he'll only move higher. Giambi, on the other hand, is almost certainly cooked as far as Cooperstown is concerned given his relatively short career (1,933 games and 1,864 hits) and his involvement in BALCO. He's done a solid job of providing a roadmap as to how a steroids-tainted player can earn back some amount of respect from fans, at least the hometown ones, but that won't win him a spot in Cooperstown, nor should it. Delgado has missed most of this season due to hip surgery, and while he's hoping to come back and audition for a contract soon, he's 38, and no lock to have a full-time job waiting for him anywhere next spring. There's probably no way he'll make up the gap between himself and the Hall standard on the JAWS scale, but if he gets to 500 homers (he has 473), he'll earn some extra consideration from the writers.
So figure birthday twins Bagwell and Thomas make it into the Hall before Helton comes up for a vote, as does Thome. That will only serve to raise the bar for the Rockies slugger, at the very least from a JAWS perspective and likely in the minds of BBWAA voters as well, while lumbering lumberjacks Thomas and Thome are dissimilar enough from Helton, Bagwell's relative similarity and superiority in the power department could especially dent his cause. Helton will have to stay especially productive in his late 30s in order to approach the JAWS standard for first basemen, and even then he's going to be well short of the counting stats that trio will have compiled when it's all said and done. This past week has created some discussion about Vladimir Guerrero's chances at Cooperstown. In my next installment, I'll examine his case, as well as that of Larry Walker and a few other contemporary right fielders.
August 13, 2009
Prospectus Hit and Run
How is the Air Up There?
by Jay Jaffe
Tuesday's piece on Todd Helton's Hall of Fame chances was greeted with enough enthusiasm to spur an installment of the Cooperstown Casebook. For a starting point, I want to revisit a line from Tuesday's piece:
"When it finally arrives, Helton's Cooperstown candidacy will be built upon numbers compiled under what have been arguably the most optimal conditions ever afforded a hitter over an extended period of time."
I was hoping to have a bit of data to back up that bold assertion in time for publication, but the quick turnaround of the piece prevented that; in any case it's now in hand. The great Baseball-Reference site offers a statistic called AIR, which indexes the combination of park and league scoring levels into one number to provide an idea of how favorable or unfavorable the conditions a player faced were, scoring-wise. According to the site's definition, AIR "measures the offensive level of the leagues and parks the player played in relative to an all-time average of a .335 OBP and .400 Slugging Percentage. Over 100 indicates a favorable setting for hitters, under 100 a favorable setting for pitchers." Helton's AIR score is 124, meaning that the historical conditions in which he's played have raised offensive levels by 24 percent. As I suspected but could not confirm prior to publication, that's the highest figure of all time. B-R's Sean Forman was kind enough to perform a couple of queries for me in the service of creating this leaderboard, which uses a 4,000 plate appearance cutoff:
Rank Player PA AIR
1 Todd Helton 7494 124
2 Neifi Perez 5365 123
3 Vinny Castilla 7305 120
4 Dante Bichette 6777 118
5 Larry Walker 7958 117
6T Earl Averill* 7160 116
Ski Melillo 5402 116
Rip Radcliff 4398 116
Jeff Cirillo 6026 115
9T Joe Vosmik 6007 115
Max Bishop 5678 115
Mike Lansing 4486 115
Rusty Greer 4370 115
Odell Hale 4057 115
15T Charlie Gehringer* 10096 114
Jimmie Foxx* 9599 114
Bing Miller 6675 114
Mickey Cochrane* 6055 114
Luke Sewell 5896 114
Billy Rogell 5819 114
Bruce Campbell 5337 114
Tony Womack 5299 114
Todd Walker 4991 114
Eric McNair 4805 114
Mule Haas 4749 114
Marv Owen 4147 114
*: Hall of Famer
The top five players all spent considerable time with the Rockies, as did Cirillo, Lansing, and Todd Walker. Additionally, Rockies past and present Terry Shumpert, Garrett Atkins, and Brad Hawpe all come in at 117, but with PA totals in the 2,000-4,000 range. At the 4,000 PA cutoff, Womack, who spent much of his career with the Diamondbacks, and Greer, who spent most of his time with the Rangers, are the only other contemporaries who make this list. The rest spent at least some portion of their careers in the hitter-friendly 1930s except for Campbell, who instead starred in the Evil Dead trilogy and... well, never mind. Note that AIR says nothing about a player's actual performance under those conditions, just whether he had the wind at his back, so to speak, which makes Perez's ineptitude with the stick (.267/.297/.375 career) all the more puzzling. The guy couldn't hit his way out of a wet Kleenex box.
Another way to understand the favorable conditions under which Helton played is to examine the drastic contrast between his career ranking in OPS, which doesn't adjust for scoring context, and in EqA, which does. Using a 3,000 PA cutoff:
Rank Player OPS EqA Rank
1 Babe Ruth 1.164 .363 1
2 Ted Williams 1.116 .359 2
3 Lou Gehrig 1.079 .341 6
4 Albert Pujols 1.056 .347 4
5 Barry Bonds 1.051 .354 3
6 Jimmie Foxx 1.037 .322 24
7 Hank Greenberg 1.017 .321 28
8 Rogers Hornsby 1.011 .337 7
9 Manny Ramirez 1.006 .330 11
10 Todd Helton .997 .307 78
11 Mark McGwire .982 .334 9
12 Mickey Mantle .978 .342 5
13 Joe DiMaggio .977 .326 20
14 Stan Musial .976 .332 10
15 Frank Thomas .974 .336 8
16 Lance Berkman .971 .321 28
17 Larry Walker .965 .303 103
18 Alex Rodriguez .964 .322 24
19 Jim Thome .963 .321 28
20 Johnny Mize .959 .327 17
21 Vladimir Guerrero .958 .314 43
22 Chipper Jones .954 .319 32
23 Jeff Bagwell .948 .322 24
24 Mel Ott .947 .328 14
25 Ralph Kiner .946 .316 37
Two of these players are not like the others, and they both spent enough time in purple that the Bud Grant Vikings are calling. Helton and Walker are the only players among the top 25 in OPS who don't even crack the top 75 in EqA. Indeed, it's almost as if the AIR is what's filling the gap between the two sets of rankings; consider that Foxx (114) and Greenberg (113) fall out of the EqA top 20, as do Berkman (112), Thome (111), Jones (111) and Guerrero (110); the only hitter here who bucks that trend is Ramirez (112).
Coors-inflated numbers are but one problem Helton will face as he strives for Cooperstown. The other will be the fact that he's got no shortage of heavy-hitting contemporaries among the first base/DH set. Here's how his JAWS case stacks up against those with whom his career has significantly overlapped (all stats through 2008). All numbers below refer to last December's build of JAWS, which includes a higher replacement level for hitters than in years past but not the play-by-play-based defensive system Clay Davenport introduced in Baseball Prospectus 2009 to cover the years 2005-2008 (it remains a work in progress going further back). In other words, they don't include 2009 figures yet, which means the EqAs may not match those above:
Player Career Peak JAWS EqA Ballot/Age
Frank Thomas 105.4 66.4 85.9 .336 2014
Jeff Bagwell 97.2 62.8 80.0 .322 2011
Albert Pujols 78.7 71.9 75.3 .345 29
Rafael Palmeiro 96.0 52.6 74.3 .305 2011
Jim Thome 84.7 50.6 67.7 .322 38
Mark McGwire 79.7 52.4 66.1 .334 2007 (21.9%)
John Olerud 79.9 50.2 65.1 .307 2011
Will Clark 74.4 50.2 62.3 .314 2006 (4.4%)
Average HoF 1B 75.8 48.4 62.1 .306
Jason Giambi 64.3 50.3 57.3 .324 38
Fred McGriff 65.6 45.8 55.7 .306 2010
Carlos Delgado 61.3 42.8 52.1 .310 37
Mark Grace 60.2 41.0 50.6 .290 2009 (4.1%)
Todd Helton 54.6 46.1 50.4 .307 35
Lance Berkman 51.0 46.3 48.7 .320 33
The last column shows the year of the first BBWAA ballot appearance for retired players (and his latest vote percentage), or the current ages of those still active.
The Baseball Writers Association of America hasn't given much love to the the players here who have reached the ballot already. They've made an example of the otherwise qualified McGwire by withholding their votes based upon his numerous links to performance-enhancing drugs, and he has yet to clear 25 percent in three years on the ballot, let alone the 75 percent he needs for election. They rejected Clark on his first ballot, a dismaying result given his standing here, but one not altogether unsurprising for a player who hung up his spikes at age 36 with just 2,178 hits and 278 homers to his name. This past winter, they rejected the less-impressive Grace on the first ballot as well.
Things will start to get interesting this winter, when McGriff comes up for a vote in a class that will also include Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin, and Edgar Martinez. Prior to the shaming of McGwire and other long-ball gods, it looked as though the Crime Dog's 493 career home runs might become the new Kingman Line, the mark above which every eligible slugger is in the Hall, replacing the hacktastic Dave Kingman's 442 jacks. Beyond the homers, McGriff's got a somewhat spottier record. He never won an MVP award and had just one top-five finish in the voting. He never won a World Series ring, though he played on two pennant winners and was a staple of the Braves' dynasty, and hit very well in the postseason (.303/.385/.532). He has a dearth of Black Ink, though he does have the distinction of being the last player to lead a league in home runs while hitting less than 40 (both leagues, in fact). Indeed, nostalgia for this pre-inflationary period—a time supposedly before juiced players and juiced baseballs—is expected to enhance his candidacy. His JAWS showing suggests he'll need it, a topic we'll discuss at length in December.
The 2011 ballot will mark the arrival of Bagwell, Palmeiro, and Olerud. Despite being one of just four men in baseball history to collect 3,000 hits and 500 homers, Palmeiro is likely to receive a chilly reception from the BBWAA due to his having tested positive for steroid use, that after his finger-wagging appearance in front of Congress just months before. Even prior to that, voters had reasons to discount his credentials; he never led the league in any major category, never won an MVP or a championship, and played his entire career in hitter's parks (Wrigley Field, Arlington Stadium, the Ballpark at Arlington, and Camden Yards) that have certainly inflated his numbers, though his 106 AIR score suggests it's not by that much. Olerud's fate is more likely to mirror Clark's; his low counting stats (namely 2,239 hits and 255 homers) suggest his batting title and his participation in the Blue Jays' two World Championships (and on a handful of other playoff teams) will be greeted with a collective yawn save for the inevitable retelling of the Rickey Henderson helmet anecdote.
Which leaves Bagwell, a strong candidate despite an injury-curtailed career (just 123 PA after reaching the age of 36), and one whose JAWS case I delved into extensively a few years ago. His JAWS numbers currently place him fourth among all first basemen, more than 20 WARP above the average Hall first baseman for his career, and a solid two WARP per year above the average for his peak. If he doesn't get in, he'll join Bert Blyleven, Tim Raines, Ron Santo, Alan Trammell, Lou Whitaker, and Bobby Grich as one of the real screwjobs in BBWAA history.
From there it will be another three years before Thomas becomes eligible, and while he'll be on an extremely crowded ballot alongside first-timers Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, Mike Mussina, and Jeff Kent—not to mention the radioactive fallout from the previous year's Barry Bonds/Roger Clemens/Sammy Sosa triumvirate—there's little argument that the Big Hurt doesn't belong in Cooperstown. With his 521 homers, two MVP awards, a sterling .301/.419/.555 career line, and a reputation as unsullied by the steroid scandals as any superstar of the era, he'll get in.
Beyond that, we're in the realm of active players whose final acts have yet to be written. Thome is positioned at a run for 600 home runs (he's got 562), and whatever the shortcomings of his candidacy in the traditional sense—no MVP awards and a spotty post-season record—he'll have a hell of a lot of long balls to discount, even given the favorable conditions of his era. He's already above the Hall Standard as far as JAWS is concerned, and he'll only move higher. Giambi, on the other hand, is almost certainly cooked as far as Cooperstown is concerned given his relatively short career (1,933 games and 1,864 hits) and his involvement in BALCO. He's done a solid job of providing a roadmap as to how a steroids-tainted player can earn back some amount of respect from fans, at least the hometown ones, but that won't win him a spot in Cooperstown, nor should it. Delgado has missed most of this season due to hip surgery, and while he's hoping to come back and audition for a contract soon, he's 38, and no lock to have a full-time job waiting for him anywhere next spring. There's probably no way he'll make up the gap between himself and the Hall standard on the JAWS scale, but if he gets to 500 homers (he has 473), he'll earn some extra consideration from the writers.
So figure birthday twins Bagwell and Thomas make it into the Hall before Helton comes up for a vote, as does Thome. That will only serve to raise the bar for the Rockies slugger, at the very least from a JAWS perspective and likely in the minds of BBWAA voters as well, while lumbering lumberjacks Thomas and Thome are dissimilar enough from Helton, Bagwell's relative similarity and superiority in the power department could especially dent his cause. Helton will have to stay especially productive in his late 30s in order to approach the JAWS standard for first basemen, and even then he's going to be well short of the counting stats that trio will have compiled when it's all said and done. This past week has created some discussion about Vladimir Guerrero's chances at Cooperstown. In my next installment, I'll examine his case, as well as that of Larry Walker and a few other contemporary right fielders.
0
Comments
Steve
My small collection
Want List:
'61 Topps Roy Campanella in PSA 5-7
Cardinal T206 cards
Adam Wainwright GU Jersey
I can't wait until Thomas and Griffey get in, I hoped it would have been same year as they were my generations Aaron & Mays.
make the HOF if you played for the Rockies.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>What list has Neifi Perez 2nd?
Steve >>
The AIR measures the offensive environment (park, the era in which he played).
My question: How does he (Helton) do on the road. If you double those stats how does he rate?
Steve
I still own a "Nutty for Neifi" t-shirt from his Cubs days.
Bosox1976
.294AVG.
.394 OB%
.491 SLG%
HR 124
RBI 473
Those are pretty good road numbers, but not as good for this era.
Helton at home
.361 AVG
.458 OB%
.646 SLG%
HR 197
RBI 708
Coors anyone?
His career OPS+ is 141, which includes the adjustment for his home park. 141 is really good....but in this era, the stars have had their way, and it has been easy to outdistance the league average for OPS.
He is 35 this year, so lets see if he has a collapse, or if he can still be viable for the years to come. Many players experience a complete collapse at this point, and thus become unemployed. Others are good enough to keep playing, adding to their value.
<< <i>No but thanks for playing for the Rockies. Judging by everybodies comments over the years you cannot
make the HOF if you played for the Rockies. >>
I just looked on the Rockies' website, and out of the ~375 Rockies players over the years, only Helton, Larry Walker and Dale Murphy could be argued as HOF caliber.
Steve
Thanks for posting and I will look forward to your next article!
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
IMO some day they are going to admit a Rockie and it might be him.
Steve
<< <i>Great research and analysis - just what I needed to distract me today.
Thanks for posting and I will look forward to your next article! >>
To be clear, I did not write it. I copied it from Baseball Prospectus.
<< <i>Dale Murphy was a Rocky !?!
Yep, played in 26 games for the Rockies in 1993, and then retired.
Steve
The only way he gets in is with 3000 hits. And sitting at 2400, I don't think he'll get there.
And let's not assume that 3,000 hits is an automatic HOF ticket for anybody.....Johnny Damon is at 2735 right now. If he plays another few years and scratches out another 265 hits, are you really telling me he's a HOFer?
IMO neither should get in unless Helton puts up some crazy numbers in the next couple of years which is not likely. Then again, the voters have turned it into the Hall Of Good years ago so it wouldn't be a surprise if both got in.
Tabe