What is the point of using VCP to argue a price of card while negotiating....

akuracy503

I really don't understand why some people are so stuck on VCP prices to try and argue their way into negotiating...

Especially if the card price (Was) within VCP average from the past year....although not (Current) VCP average.
I'm not going to downgrade the price of my card just because the last 3 idiots decided to sell there card for desperate prices which drove the card price down on "average".

We are talking about a short print post war vintage card which is hard enough to come by in the marketplace, there really isn't a reason not to stand firm on prices of these SP cards.

Anyhow just a rant and I'm not trying to cause bad relations with this member but I just want to get other people's thoughts.

I feel almost harrased in such a statement or challenged that my price is "Not VCP average"

I just don't get it....maybe i'm wrong? But don't I own the card? shouldnt I have the freedom to set my firm price.

itzagoner

until someone decides to buy your card it is worthless.

price is the deciding factor. next question?

Alfonz24

It should be the price YOU are willing at to sell.

I agree that VCP should be used as a tool to get to the sales price, but not the final say-all.

mmsportscards

Agree, especially when store sales are not recorded.....

srs1a

VCP is a measure of how the market values the card. You said that the last 3 idiots decided to sell their cards for desperate prices...is that really true, or were these "desperate prices" determined in an open auction?

That being said, it is your card and you can value it in anyway you choose

hammered

What's the card and what are you asking for it?

VCP is valuable as a measure, because it is not an arbitrary number (like SMR tends to be).

So buyers have good reason to expect yours to fall in line with past sales, especially since during those prior sales, the population may have been lower than it is now.

But it is your card and you can ask what you want.

lsutigers1973

If you want to sell the card and don't want to do a true auction on eBay or with any other auction house, your only decent option is VCP average. If you are not willing to use past sales according to VCP, then you are not interested in selling the card. If you are not willing to sell the card for what it is actually worth, then there was absolutely no point in starting this thread.

Downtown1974

Yes you have the right to set your prices. But I dont fault anybody for using VCP averages as a start for price negotiations. Maybe those 3 sales that were made at desperate prices were poor auctions (bad scans, rush hour traffic ending times, etc.)

akuracy503

Basics yes, When supply of SP card is limited and the owners are firm on prices they can control VCP stats.

It's just a bad time to sell and does not truly reflect the cards historical value on average.

If a seller wants to stay firm on realized past values then why challenge them? Go find another card.

lsutigers1973

<< <i>When supply of SP card is limited and the owners are firm on prices they can control VCP stats. >>



You can not "control" VCP stats if you don't sell the card. VCP does not keep track of cards that did not sell.

CDsNuts

From the buyer's perspective I think it's a fair argument if stated the right way, but if your ultimate judgment says the card is worth more then go with it. The question you need to ask yourself is if you were looking to buy this card, how much would you expect to pay? Say you have "Card A" with the last 5 sales being (oldest to newest):

$100, $150, $100, $80, $80. I would expect to get this card for around $80 if I was looking for it, but I certainly wouldn't chastise the seller for asking $100-$125 for it. I'd simply make my offer and move on with no mention of VCP. You have to understand that many cards (and the market as a whole) are on a downward trend and people are looking to pick them up cheaper than they were a year ago. It's funny that most sellers are looking to get the highest recorded price for their card and most buyers are looking to pay the lowest recorded price (sometimes even lower).

Also, VCP shouldn't be the end-all-be-all. They miss a ton of auctions, miss all the off-ebay sales (which accounts for probably 15-20% of all graded card sales), and have a ton of errors that effect the average pricing. I sold an 80s basketball card for $2,500 off ebay with no recorded VCP sales. The next one sold at ebay auction for $200. If that seller did the same research I did on the card, he would've gotten $1000-$1500 for his card. Instead, he looked it up on VCP, saw it had no recorded sales and decided to let it go to auction because he couldn't come up with a good guess as to what it would bring. This was not a hard card to figure bringing big money if he did a little research.

Just like Beckett in the 80s and 90s, people are using VCP as a crutch so they don't have to rely on doing research and using their own common sense to price cards (when both buying and selling).

Lee

akuracy503

<< <i>If you want to sell the card and don't want to do a true auction on eBay or with any other auction house, your only decent option is VCP average. If you are not willing to use past sales according to VCP, then you are not interested in selling the card. If you are not willing to sell the card for what it is actually worth, then there was absolutely no point in starting this thread. >>



I sold the card to someone else for my asking price and it was average VCP within the last year, just not current downtrend price....
So where did I go wrong?

Let me clarify My card is well within reason of past sales which is the major point here....Similar cards with it's eye appeal got the same price if not higher.

So again....was I wrong?

Should I subject myself to negotiation with someone who thinks recent downward trend sales is a true comparison to my cards asking price? Same grade yes, different eye appeal maybe.. fair price? I think so....

Put yourself in my shoes before taking shots.

akuracy503

The rant is really getting off topic from the initial reason I posted, the example I used was not THAT bad of a scenario....It just rubbed me the wrong way so I started this topic to get some thoughts from other members.

When I purchase cards I'll check VCP but most importantly I'll compare the prices NOT to the Average VCP but to past sales of cards with SIMILAR eye appeal, I think this is where some buyers are disconnected.

CDsNuts

I'll compare the prices NOT to the Average VCP but to past sales of cards with SIMILAR eye appeal, I think this is where some buyers are disconnected.

That's another good point about VCP (and grading in general). A well centered PSA 8 is always going to sell better than a 70/30 PSA 8, so when a well centered 8 sells for 75% more than the rest of the 8s it will make the VCP average go up.

lsutigers1973

You state that you also check VCP when looking to purchase a card but go on a rant when someone else uses VCP to negotiate a price on a card you are selling?

In other words, you want absolute top dollar for your cards but want to use the recent sales averages when purchasing cards.

akuracy503

<< <i>You state that you also check VCP when looking to purchase a card but go on a rant when someone else uses VCP to negotiate a price on a card you are selling?

In other words, you want absolute top dollar for your cards but want to use the recent sales averages when purchasing cards. >>



I want absolute VCP average on past sales with similar eye appeal....

PSA grades...then factor in eye appeal...

That is why I say that VCP "average" is bogus to a measure because You have variables like bad scans, bad eye appeal, questionable ebay seller reputation etc etc....

I wasn't asking top dollar, I pay for cards based on grade and eye appeal and at that pay fair value based on past VCP stats for that grade..

I rarely care about the VCP "Average" for the grade itself.
This is the disconnect people have about VCP.

WinPitcher

I'm sorry this happened.


Steve

lsutigers1973

I agree with you to a point regarding VCP. On the rare occassion that I try to sell a high grade card, I always use VCP but remove the highest priced sale and the lowest priced sale to come up with my own average. Unless the card is a PSA 10, you can also usually remove quite a few of the lower priced sales if they are drastically lower than the higher valued ones. In most cases, the card that was sold had a qualifier but is only recorded in VCP by the number grade.

akuracy503

You can't determine the true market value (VCP) without comparing it to past sold cards that are very similar, easiest formula (Grade + Eye appeal)

Don't be confused by the downward trend or upward trend of the grade....Each card is unique and commands it's own price within a grades average.

Am I stating the obvious? apparently not if some people still argue VCP average for the "grade".

thenavarro

You wrote:
I sold the card to someone else for my asking price and it was average VCP within the last year, just not current downtrend price....
So where did I go wrong?

My reply: If you sold the card at your asking price, then you obviously didn't go wrong unless there are other factors such as telling the other party you were holding it for them, agreed on one price with someone else and then sold it higher to another, etc. Otherwise, looks ok.


You wrote: Let me clarify My card is well within reason of past sales which is the major point here....Similar cards with it's eye appeal got the same price if not higher.

So again....was I wrong?

My reply: No, but the person that was trying to negotiate with you and asking for a lower price was not wrong either. They are entitled to make whatever offer they want on whatever basis, and you are entitled to say no.

You wrote: Should I subject myself to negotiation with someone who thinks recent downward trend sales is a true comparison to my cards asking price? Same grade yes, different eye appeal maybe.. fair price? I think so....

Put yourself in my shoes before taking shots.

My reply: This is where we differ a bit. If someone makes an offer on one of my items, whether or not I've previously stated that my price was firm or some other lingo, I don't get offended, nor do I feel that I am being "subjected" to something. I'm usually appreciative that they've taken the time to offer me a portion of their money and had enough interest in my item to at least inquire about it. If I don't like their offer, I simply say no thanks and I genuinely wish them luck in finding the item at a price they are comfortable with. The day that I feel that I'm being "subjected" to something in a negative way because someone offered me something, is the day that I need to take a break and perhaps reconsider selling items if I don't have the time or inclination to deal with them. There are some items that I'll list and if I don't want to consider offers, I'll very plainly state that so no one has misconceptions. Otherwise, typically most things on this planet are open to negotiation.

I'm glad for you that you got the price you were looking for. That should tell you that your gut was right about your price.

Take care,

Mike

cwazzy

I use VCP average as a starting point and go from there. Most of the cards in my collection have perfect centering and I pay accordingly. For more than half of them I've set new highs on VCP. But I went into the transaction knowing that would probably be the case. So VCP average may not be the absolute perfect price but it is a means-to-an-end.

BunchOBull

Common sense says as the owner of any given card, you only have to sell it for a price you are willing to accept (other than auction format of course).

That being said, the concept that this downward trend is just a blip on the radar and a reflection of current economic conditions, not actual market value, may be a naive one. For anyone looking to sell at any time in the foreseeable future, now is the time to sell in my opinion. I don't think prices realized 2 years ago will be common place for some time, if ever again. Especially considering much of the boom was caused by low pop registry cards. As time goes on, the pops can only expand. The '52 Mantles of the world will obviously be the last to collapse, but even they aren't immune at some point.

hammered

<< <i>They miss a ton of auctions, miss all the off-ebay sales (which accounts for probably 15-20% of all graded card sales) >>



True statement. 15-20% might even be low.
I've sold many cards direct to buyers who've bought from me before.
Case in point, I just sold several newly graded, 1/1 PSA 10s from '77 Topps to Frank Merz, which he added to his phenomenal 77T all PSA 10 set.
Those are important cards, yet will never be recorded in VCP.

WinPitcher

15-20% might even be low.



Probably very low.


Steve

CDsNuts

15-20% might even be low. Probably very low. Steve

I think you're right- it's low in terms of dollars sold, since high dollar deals tend to get struck off ebay after the seller throws a card out there with an insane BIN looking for nibbles. However, in terms of quantity of cards it's probably pretty close since a ton of mid to mid-high grade cards are sold on ebay every day.

BigDaddyBowman

I agree that VCP is a price to use as a approximate guide, but I have to admit I do get frustrated when I get somebody telling me that my asking price is too high and that they will give me VCP average for a card I am selling. I use VCP as a tool, but it is not the end all be all of pricing. No matter what Bobby says they do miss a lot of sales. When you are dealing with 40's/50's vintage football and there is only a few sales of a card in a grade in the past couple years..how in the heck can they really offer a legitimate average for a card. Also, it doesn't take into conisderation centering, qualifiers, and overall scarcity. There are a TON of vintage football cards that would be STEALS if I was able to buy them at the so called VCP average is.

WinPitcher

Lee

IMO many more cards are sold off ebay then on it.


Ebay is just one venue.


Steve

hammered

I like VCP and use it frequently but they do make mistakes.

Recently I saw a Mantle PSA 8 card on VCP (forgot what year) listed much higher than other sales. Turns out the actual auction was for the entire set, w/ a PSA 8 Mantle included.

BigDaddyBowman

<< <i>Lee

IMO many more cards are sold off ebay then on it.


Ebay is just one venue.


Steve >>




I agree Steve.

mcolney1

<< <i>I agree that VCP is a price to use as a approximate guide, but I have to admit I do get frustrated when I get somebody telling me that my asking price is too high and that they will give me VCP average for a card I am selling. I use VCP as a tool, but it is not the end all be all of pricing. No matter what Bobby says they do miss a lot of sales. When you are dealing with 40's/50's vintage football and there is only a few sales of a card in a grade in the past couple years..how in the heck can they really offer a legitimate average for a card. Also, it doesn't take into conisderation centering, qualifiers, and overall scarcity. There are a TON of vintage football cards that would be STEALS if I was able to buy them at the so called VCP average is. >>

mcolney1

<< <i>I agree that VCP is a price to use as a approximate guide, but I have to admit I do get frustrated when I get somebody telling me that my asking price is too high and that they will give me VCP average for a card I am selling. I use VCP as a tool, but it is not the end all be all of pricing. No matter what Bobby says they do miss a lot of sales. When you are dealing with 40's/50's vintage football and there is only a few sales of a card in a grade in the past couple years..how in the heck can they really offer a legitimate average for a card. Also, it doesn't take into conisderation centering, qualifiers, and overall scarcity. There are a TON of vintage football cards that would be STEALS if I was able to buy them at the so called VCP average is. >>



I'm probably the guilty party here. I've had some very fair dealings with Ryan and have just used VCP as a starting point. The way I look at it is that if I'm patient I can find the card I want on ebay for the VCP average or less. If I can buy a card off of a board member for around VCP average then great. If the seller thinks my offer is too low that's no problem at all, no hard feelings. If the price is right then I'm happy to pay VCP average or a little more. No lectures...the seller sets the price as soon as they accept the offer. If they don't like my offer I'm fine with that. I hope to deal with Ryan and others on the board in the future.

Tony

tunahead08

It's too bad there's not a good way to accurately add off-ebay sales to VCP. You could have the user submit sale prices, but I think that would be too easy for a person to spoof and sway the price.

BigDaddyBowman

Guilty as charged Tony! LOL I believe our deals have been fair for both of us. no complaints.

In all seriousness, I use VCP, and I do believe that it is a useful tool, but it all depends on the card in question. If your talking a card that has 25 sales in the past year..then it probably is pretty reliable, but a card (like most vintage 40's/50's football) that has only a handful of listed sales ever, it does not give a totally accurate picture.

It is like an experimenter conducting only one or two trials in an experiment, then declaring the results of his experiment as new scientific evidence...not a chance his results would be looked at as valid and reliable. Now if you get the same or similar results hundreds or thousands of times, then he might be on to something.

A good experiment needs to control the variables....unfortunately there are too many possible variable differences when dealing with cards and condition...all PSA 7's are not the same.

mcolney1

<< <i>unfortunately there are too many possible variable differences when dealing with cards and condition...all PSA 7's are not the same. >>



How true!

bobbyw8469

I am the guilty party...please accept my apologies....on the free market a person is able to ask any price he wants for his items.

akuracy503

<< <i>I am the guilty party...please accept my apologies....on the free market a person is able to ask any price he wants for his items. >>



You are a true gentleman, I also apologize for blowing this topic off track it was mostly fueled from past experiences with VCP discussions.
It just happened to be that this time I bring the topic to light on an open forum.

You're a stand up guy and thanks for the note.

Martin.

BigDaddyBowman

Here is an example:

What is this card worth? No results in 2 years. I know I would be willing to pay $200-225 for a nicely centered one....probably more if I had to.

1953 Bowman Marion Motley

Latest Auction Prices for: PSA 7 - Average Price: $152.51

Listing Type: All Auction Buy It Now Best Offer Show: 2550100All

Date Auction Link Price Extra
7/5/07 eBay $152.51
11/18/06 eBay $34.99

diamondman

I have said this before: use VCP as a guide not the bible!
there are to many people that think hey it sold for 100.00 so this time around I should get it for 90 and so goes the downward spiral
let me know when the psa 8 52 topps mantle gets down to 1000 so I can buy a couple.
VCP is just a guide that only reflects about 40 to 50% of the real market. IMHO just my 2 cents worth.

so flame away, I am drinking another PSA 10 Budweiser I just bought for under 1.00. (why can't i get a 6 pack of bud for under 2 bucks anymore were was vcp when i needed them for my beer???)

bigreddog

VCP, SMR, Beckett, Tuff Stuff etc. All are ok for a General Idea, But other than that they are rubish.

No matter what these fancy guides say, the bottom line is this:

Its ONLY worth what someone is willing to give you for it.