<< <i>I like the idea of this coin having a face value of 11 cents. I would never have thought of it that way. I have sort of an odd question: it was stated by the Penny Lady that there are only 10-20 of these errors known to exist. How would the known existance of another of this type of dbl denom error affect the value of the coins already known to exist? Would it decrease their value drastically? I ask, because I happen to have an error coin very similar to the op's coin. The only difference is that where the images on his coin have been stamped almost directly on top of each other, my coin was rotated almost 180 degrees. Unfortunately I don't have pic taking/posting capabilities at the moment, but am working on it and will up a pic if anyone's interested.
Very cool coin btw >>
I'd love to see a picture of your coin - definitely post it here if you can. If you go to Eagle Eye's post above, Rick provided a link to Heritage's auction of another one of these coins. I looked it up and it sold a couple months ago for $1,610 plus 15% buyer's fee. That one was one grade higher but the portraits were perpendicular to each other instead of aligned. Also, it looks like this exact same coin is up for sale again in the upcoming Bowers & Merena auction at the ANA in L.A., in addition to another one in MS65 (also with perpendicular portraits). I believe my particular coin is probably more desirable since the portraits are aligned which, whether intentional or accidental, in my opinion is pretty unique and incredible. In any event, I definitely will be watching to see how these two coins do in the B&M auction!
I just wanted to throw my 11 cents in on the thought of intentional human intervention with respect to the original coin in this thread.
As has been said, Double denomination errors do happen occasionally. They are not done on purpose. The scenario of a struck dime getting mixed in with planchets for cents is encountered more often than one might think.
Double denomination errors are a known error type. The coin being overstruck has to fit between the second set of dies so a smaller coin is always overstruck by dies intended to strike a larger coin. Examples would be a cent overstruck by nickel dies, or a quarter overstruck by half dollar dies, etc.
This one is a cent struck over a dime. The orientation of obverse and reverse is indeed a fifty/fifty chance. The fact that the obverses and reverses were aligned with both strikes makes this a really nice coin!
A few other points that lead to the conclusion that this was a random striking that fortunately turned out to have the obverses and reverses perfectly oriented as opposed to a strike that was assisted by a Mint employee would be:
In order for a strike to be this good, the coining press has to be cycled up to full pressure. It is not a situation with a coining press where a Mint employee could simply lay the struck dime between the cent dies and strike this coin.
A coining press running cents is cycled up to produce about 750 coins per minute when at full striking pressure and there is no way for a Mint employee to have manipulated this coin to be struck in this manner.
Wow, Bill, what a logical and thought out explanation - you sound like you have experience or good knowledge about minting presses. I really appreciate your clearl insights! Being the owner of this little boo boo, your explanation makes the most sense to me as to how he came to be. Thanks again!
<< <i>I nderstand that the IHC was a duplicate, still a high end dupe with eye appeal none the less and still a coin that I would want over such recent error. I understand I am probably in the minority with this one but I would never had made the trade dupe or no dupe nor cash to boot. The odds of finding another IHC similar tot he one that you gave up would be very hard pressed, my 1869/9 is an ms62 pcgs and trust me tough to come by. >>
Realone, Whether you agree or disagree with the deal I made is NOT what this thread is about, and never was. I specialize in Indian cents so you're not telling me anything new that this overdate in high grade is hard to come by. But I DO HAVE a beautiful high grade 1969/69 in MS65 RB in my collection that I'm very happy with. And you sound like the MS66 RB 1869/69 is dead and buried and gone forever - it's not! It went to another high end collector who absolutely loves and appreciates it! I understand that YOU would not have done this deal, but let's move past what you would have done - I am happy with the deal and so is my customer. End of story.
I think you made an excellent choice. I likely would have done the same deal or even a different one as in a straight up trade. The look of your new error is incredibly impressive!
<< <i>Sorry, when you asked "So what do you all think" I tool that literally. And since there are newbees looking in and forever joining I try to impart another opinion just like the opinions many gave to me when I was lurking/reading the threads. Obviously I am fully aware that you specialize in IHC's but imho a case needs to be made that these coins are apples and oranges and since you asked I decided to make it. If you didn't ask I would have said nothing. I feel strongly against dipping too and will often take the stand to say no to dipping ( I also realize I may very well be in the minority with this opinion too). I will fade to black now >>
Realone, I was asking what people thought about the ERROR, not the deal. But a few people began focusing on the deal, which was not why I posted this coin. And in previous threads I tried to subtly steer the discussion away from this and back to the error, but some of you just wouldn't let it go. So there are no apples and oranges to compare here, it wasn't a matter of whether I or you liked one over the other since the coin I traded/sold was up for sale any way!
p.s. I wholeheartedly agree with people expressing their opinion, whether they're in the minority or not, but I was trying to keep this discussion on the error and not the deal, that's all.
<< <i>Wow, Bill, what a logical and thought out explanation - you sound like you have experience or good knowledge about minting presses. I really appreciate your clearl insights! Being the owner of this little boo boo, your explanation makes the most sense to me as to how he came to be. Thanks again! >>
Comments
<< <i>I like the idea of this coin having a face value of 11 cents. I would never have thought of it that way. I have sort of an odd question: it was stated by the Penny Lady that there are only 10-20 of these errors known to exist. How would the known existance of another of this type of dbl denom error affect the value of the coins already known to exist? Would it decrease their value drastically? I ask, because I happen to have an error coin very similar to the op's coin. The only difference is that where the images on his coin have been stamped almost directly on top of each other, my coin was rotated almost 180 degrees. Unfortunately I don't have pic taking/posting capabilities at the moment, but am working on it and will up a pic if anyone's interested.
Very cool coin btw >>
I'd love to see a picture of your coin - definitely post it here if you can. If you go to Eagle Eye's post above, Rick provided a link to Heritage's auction of another one of these coins. I looked it up and it sold a couple months ago for $1,610 plus 15% buyer's fee. That one was one grade higher but the portraits were perpendicular to each other instead of aligned. Also, it looks like this exact same coin is up for sale again in the upcoming Bowers & Merena auction at the ANA in L.A., in addition to another one in MS65 (also with perpendicular portraits). I believe my particular coin is probably more desirable since the portraits are aligned which, whether intentional or accidental, in my opinion is pretty unique and incredible. In any event, I definitely will be watching to see how these two coins do in the B&M auction!
The Penny Lady®
I just wanted to throw my 11 cents in on the thought of intentional human intervention with respect to the original coin in this thread.
As has been said, Double denomination errors do happen occasionally. They are not done on purpose. The scenario of a struck dime getting mixed in with planchets for cents is encountered more often than one might think.
Double denomination errors are a known error type. The coin being overstruck has to fit between the second set of dies so a smaller coin is always overstruck by dies intended to strike a larger coin. Examples would be a cent overstruck by nickel dies, or a quarter overstruck by half dollar dies, etc.
This one is a cent struck over a dime. The orientation of obverse and reverse is indeed a fifty/fifty chance. The fact that the obverses and reverses were aligned with both strikes makes this a really nice coin!
A few other points that lead to the conclusion that this was a random striking that fortunately turned out to have the obverses and reverses perfectly oriented as opposed to a strike that was assisted by a Mint employee would be:
In order for a strike to be this good, the coining press has to be cycled up to full pressure. It is not a situation with a coining press where a Mint employee could simply lay the struck dime between the cent dies and strike this coin.
A coining press running cents is cycled up to produce about 750 coins per minute when at full striking pressure and there is no way for a Mint employee to have manipulated this coin to be struck in this manner.
It was indeed a random strike.
Have Fun,
Bill
myurl http://www.foundinrolls.com
The Penny Lady®
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
<< <i>I nderstand that the IHC was a duplicate, still a high end dupe with eye appeal none the less and still a coin that I would want over such recent error. I understand I am probably in the minority with this one but I would never had made the trade dupe or no dupe nor cash to boot. The odds of finding another IHC similar tot he one that you gave up would be very hard pressed, my 1869/9 is an ms62 pcgs and trust me tough to come by. >>
Realone, Whether you agree or disagree with the deal I made is NOT what this thread is about, and never was. I specialize in Indian cents so you're not telling me anything new that this overdate in high grade is hard to come by. But I DO HAVE a beautiful high grade 1969/69 in MS65 RB in my collection that I'm very happy with. And you sound like the MS66 RB 1869/69 is dead and buried and gone forever - it's not! It went to another high end collector who absolutely loves and appreciates it! I understand that YOU would not have done this deal, but let's move past what you would have done - I am happy with the deal and so is my customer. End of story.
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>Sorry, when you asked "So what do you all think" I tool that literally. And since there are newbees looking in and forever joining I try to impart another opinion just like the opinions many gave to me when I was lurking/reading the threads. Obviously I am fully aware that you specialize in IHC's but imho a case needs to be made that these coins are apples and oranges and since you asked I decided to make it. If you didn't ask I would have said nothing. I feel strongly against dipping too and will often take the stand to say no to dipping ( I also realize I may very well be in the minority with this opinion too). I will fade to black now
Realone, I was asking what people thought about the ERROR, not the deal. But a few people began focusing on the deal, which was not why I posted this coin. And in previous threads I tried to subtly steer the discussion away from this and back to the error, but some of you just wouldn't let it go. So there are no apples and oranges to compare here, it wasn't a matter of whether I or you liked one over the other since the coin I traded/sold was up for sale any way!
p.s. I wholeheartedly agree with people expressing their opinion, whether they're in the minority or not, but I was trying to keep this discussion on the error and not the deal, that's all.
The Penny Lady®
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
<< <i>Wow, Bill, what a logical and thought out explanation - you sound like you have experience or good knowledge about minting presses. I really appreciate your clearl insights! Being the owner of this little boo boo, your explanation makes the most sense to me as to how he came to be. Thanks again! >>
Hi,
I've been at this for awhile:-)
Have Fun,
Bill
myurl http://www.foundinrolls.com