Teletrade is just CRAZY!

leothelyon

Yes, we've discussed this many times before but when a coin of interest starts out at $675, ends at $825 and doesn't REALLY sell, that's just plain nuts! On top of all that, the PCGS price guide shows the coin's value at only $250.
Why doesn't Teletrade just let the coin ride without the BS with the mock bidding and all. If the seller doesn't like the final bid then let him back out of the sale and charge a fee.
It's obvious the seller is trying to recoup the registry hyped price he paid for the coin but that's not going to happen.
What else is there to say.............we're onto Teletrade's evil empire to push the envelope onto some unwary collectors and this only hurts the hobby.


Leo

BECOKA

Probably because the owner is allowed to bid on it and the owner put in a bid that no one else wanted to exceed.

OnlyGoldIsMoney

A little transparency would help a lot. I much prefer the ways Heritage and DLRC handle reserves. Heritage tells the prospective bidder precisely when the reserve, if any, will be posted. In other instances you are informed that a coin has no reserve. I have purchased just two coins from Teletrade in the last 12 months versus dozens at Heritage. I sometimes don't even bother to check Teletrade's upcoming auctions.

edit for punctuation

leothelyon

<< <i>Probably because the owner is allowed to bid on it and the owner put in a bid that no one else wanted to exceed. >>



The seller's reserve was $825 and beyond the $250 PCGS has in their price guide. And Teletrade, on the seller's behalf, increase the bid 6 times from $675 and $825! From $400 to $975, the bid increment is $25. Teletrade made 6 bids for the seller while no-one was interested in the coin. Tell me that's not "bid shilling" at it's finest.


Leo

adamlaneus

<< <i>

<< <i>Probably because the owner is allowed to bid on it and the owner put in a bid that no one else wanted to exceed. >>



The seller's reserve was $825 and beyond the $250 PCGS has in their price guide. And Teletrade, on the seller's behalf, increase the bid 6 times from $675 and $825! From $400 to $975, the bid increment is $25. Teletrade made 6 bids for the seller while no-one was interested in the coin. Tell me that's not "bid shilling" at it's finest.


Leo >>



Shilling requires one interested party to be shilled. This is, therefore, not really shilling. Not when nobody was interested.

This is a reserve, presented in a non-transparent manner.

A reserve that looks like incoming bids is designed to whip up hype and enthusiasm, the two things you should not have as a bidder in an auction.

Mitigate this by setting your own price, based on the coin alone and your internal process, and not based on hype, excitement and salesmanship. Approach all auctions in this way.

golfer72

Bid what you are willing to pay. If it goes past it so be it. Why complain?

leothelyon

<< <i>Bid what you are willing to pay. If it goes past it so be it. Why complain? >>



Because the guy who makes the mistake of buying a coin at 3.5 times the coin's actual value is getting ripped off. Later, when this guy goes to sell or learns the true value of the coin, he's going to wonder what happen.
What he'll learn is that Teletrade's real purpose to the coin hobby is to help dump overpriced coins on the unsuspecting collector. With the integrety the coin market at an all time low, this is no way to rebuild or sustain a collector's confidence to stay with the hobby. No-where did he read that he may be the only bidder bidding in winning his auctions.
Many of you are really missing the point. Do you think it's OK to stand-by while others get ripped while the prices of your coins take a nose-dive in a crummy market?


Leo

golfer72

If you dont know the value of the coins you should not be bidding on them.

golfer72

Leo, i just checked your link. There are some beautiful coins there. Nice job.

Tip

It has been many years since I bid on coins from Teletrade. I never really liked any of the coins, couldn't get info if I asked a question, and thought the final bids were too high. Maybe the sellers really do bid on their own coins and Teletrade is Ok with that. Teletrade is a definite No to me under any circumstance.
I would tell anyone to never be tempted with them
Tip

golfer72

I have gotten dozens of great coins on Teletrade. Is there a lot of junk? Yes. But guess what? There is a lot of junk everywhere. Its just another resource. Good coins can be found there. Only if you look though.

leothelyon

<< <i>It has been many years since I bid on coins from Teletrade. I never really liked any of the coins, couldn't get info if I asked a question, and thought the final bids were too high. Maybe the sellers really do bid on their own coins and Teletrade is Ok with that. Teletrade is a definite No to me under any circumstance.
I would tell anyone to never be tempted with them
Tip >>



Finally............someone understands! Thank you Tip.


Leo

leothelyon

<< <i>Leo, i just checked your link. There are some beautiful coins there. Nice job. >>



Thank you. Constantly upgrading.......someday I'll get there. It has taken lots of work.


Leo

wondercoin

Leo - What coin are you discussing here? Lot #?

Wondercoin

DennisH

Does anyone suppose that Teletrade knows that people have grown skeptical, suspicious, and even outright distrustful of bidding in their auctions?

lordmarcovan

I've not done anything on Teletrade really, since the millennium.

It's not that I hold anything against them- it was fun to get their catalogs and bid on stuff before I had a computer. Now that I do have a computer and the Internet, and can actually see pictures of stuff instead of bidding sight-unseen, I've found my coins on other venues and haven't really given Teletrade much thought, except when I was looking for something very specific that I couldn't find elsewhere (which means I usually couldn't find it on Teletrade, either).

wondercoin

"Yes, we've discussed this many times before"

And, each time concluded that the Teletrade system is no different than myriad other auction companies out there.

Still, I am curious which coin is in the PCGS guide at $250 to see if the Guide needs an update.

Wondercoin

OKbustchaser

<< <i>Yes, we've discussed this many times before but when a coin of interest starts out at $675, ends at $825 and doesn't REALLY sell, that's just plain nuts! On top of all that, the PCGS price guide shows the coin's value at only $250.
Why doesn't Teletrade just let the coin ride without the BS with the mock bidding and all. If the seller doesn't like the final bid then let him back out of the sale and charge a fee.
It's obvious the seller is trying to recoup the registry hyped price he paid for the coin but that's not going to happen.
What else is there to say.............we're onto Teletrade's evil empire to push the envelope onto some unwary collectors and this only hurts the hobby.

Leo >>



So, it is the consignor's coin. He should be allowed to price it any way he wants to. Even if--as you say insist happened--he overpaid for it due to a registry hyped price which no longer applies then he has every right to try to recoup his costs. He very well might be asking more than the market price but that is his perogative. The fact that TO YOU he is asking too much is irrelevant.

notwilight

Leo,
There are a lot of smart people who sell on teletrade. There are a lot of coins worth 2.5x price guide. If you want to pay price guide for a coin, this one is clearly not for you. --Jerry

RedTiger

The case described in the original post, might be someone that didn't want to sell that particular coin, but used Teletrade to get a good rate on having the coin graded, in a batch of other raw coins, some that he/she did want to sell. Now if it gets relisted more than three times, the evidence would be strong that it is yet another house owned coin where the house seems to think it is worth the moon and the stars. On Teletrade the percentage of such house owned coins listed for retail sale seems very high compared to consignor coins listed for real auction.

For the house coins, it is often becomes a waste of time. Why they do it, is occasionally a mark walks into the auction thinking it there is another collector bidding against them and meets (like that Franklin thread recently posted that was relisted over ten times over the course of several years) what many folks believe is an absurdly high reserve. Teletrade does catch fish once in a while, and that fuels their profits on these house owned hidden retail coins.

Franklin sold thread

If the sellers were smart, they would lobby to have Teletrade disclose the reserves, and/or the house ownership, so their consignor coins would get more attention.

Halfhunter06

i agree with the OP, Teletrade should look at Heritage. No BS with the bidding, let all of us know what the reserve is, and include the BP price just like Heritage so we know how much we would have to pay. Ofcoarse they wont listen, they think they are doing everything great.

wondercoin

Halfhunter06 - Why exactly should they "look to Heritage" and not, say, Stacks or Bowers as their model? I could present a very strong case for why the Stacks or Bowers model is just as reasonable as the Heritage model. One thing is for certain... if you consign your coins at no reserve, "you either live by the sword or die by the sword".

Wondercoin

yellowkid

<< <i>It has been many years since I bid on coins from Teletrade. I never really liked any of the coins, couldn't get info if I asked a question, and thought the final bids were too high. Maybe the sellers really do bid on their own coins and Teletrade is Ok with that. Teletrade is a definite No to me under any circumstance.
I would tell anyone to never be tempted with them
Tip >>



You must buy at that place where the final bids are low......

wondercoin

nickel

Leo: Is this the coin from the auction?

Here is an example of a very well struck 1954-P nickel with very nice color. Both are unusual for the date. But, without the "FS" designation, there is not a strong market for "just miss" coins. The owner of this coin (and I have no idea who it is) tried to get $800+ for his nice example of a coin that without color and a strong strike is worth perhaps a hundred or two hundred. No takers, but, surely Teletrade can't be faulted for a owner of a coin like this trying to get 5x what it is worth without the decent strike and color - as his coin was certainly not the "typical" specimen? The owner probably paid a 5% reserve fee for the "shot".

Wondercoin

leothelyon

Early on in 2005, two coins sold for $240 and $250. The next 8 sales of this coin have sold for an average of $120.
So the seller and Teletrade thought it would be ok to stage a true auction with no real bidders to try and unload such a coin for over $825. Mitch, the strike doesn't look all that full but the condition, luster and toning does add some extra eye appeal. But I would need to see what's going on with the picture provided before pulling the trigger. Since that's not going to happen anytime soon, my path and it will cross someday, I'll deal with it then.
As for teletrade, if they want to continue with this farce and want my business, they will need to let me know over the phone when an auction has real bidders before I bid again.


Leo

wondercoin

Leo: I do not think Teletrade "stages" anything. As a general rule, they simply charge 5% of whatever reserve amount an owner of a coin choses to place on their coin. Seriously, what is the alternative - not allowing a collector or dealer to place whatever asking price they see fit on their own property? As for your disappointment on not winning the piece at a much lower (and possibly much fairer level) - I've been there myself. As BC used to say - "I feel your pain".

Wondercoin

leothelyon

We're talking about the poor sap who thinks he's bidding against another bidder and wins the lot at $825. 7X what the coin may be worth. What are your sentiments on that. The rules are obviously set-up to protect the seller. But what about the buyer? Where is the "buyer beware" warning before anyone begins to bid in a Teletrade auction?


Leo

AUandAG

<< <i>Probably because the owner is allowed to bid on it and the owner put in a bid that no one else wanted to exceed. >>



I know that what you are saying is correct. However, why in the hell would someone consign a coin to an auction house
only to bid on the coin so that it does not sell. Damn, they have no faith in competitive bidding at TT.

Oh well,

bob

wondercoin

Leo: Again, so what is different between the Teletrade system and, say, Stacks or Bowers? If a coin is reserved for $100,000 in a Stacks or Bowers sale and it gets there via a single bid going against the reserve, what is the difference?

Back to the 1954-P nickel - the owner thinks he has a special coin and reserves it for $800+. He pays $40 for the reserve level and it fails to sell, resulting in shipping fees back to the owner as well as the fees it took the coin to get to the auction in the first place. The owner pays out $75 - $85+ to get nowhere with his coin. That is his right - no? Why should Teletrade police his reserve and tell him that he can only reserve his coin at $150? How would you feel if you were the owner of a coin that Teletrade told you to reserve at $150 (when you wanted to place an $800 reserve), which was then bought by a sister company of Teletrade for $150 out of the Teletrade sale and then quickly resold for $800 retail to someone? LOL. Geez, could you imagine the thread we would be having on that scenario!!

Wondercoin

P.S. I have not bid in a Stacks sale this year (but bought a six figure item from them last year and found their service to be A-1), so please correct me if I am now wrong about the Stacks bidding style still being similar to that of Bowers or many other auctions houses. I am still under the impression that of all the "majors", Heritage is the only one that reveals consignor's reserves.

leothelyon

<< <i>Leo: Again, so what is different between the Teletrade system and, say, Stacks or Bowers? If a coin is reserved for $100,000 in a Stacks or Bowers sale and it gets there via a single bid going against the reserve, what is the difference? >>



For about the 3rd time, Teletrade allows sellers to bid on their own auctions. Does Stacks or Bowers do that? I don't think so. The supply and demand is dictated by two bidders. The seller acting as a bidder doesn't have any interest in the coin other than protecting his reserve, he only wants to sell it.
The actual realtime buyer/bidder wants the coin but only in a supply and demand auction. Making a bidder believe that he is bidding against another bidder is absolutely wrong, any way you want to cut it, it's wrong.


Leo

wondercoin

"For about the 3rd time, Teletrade allows sellers to bid on their own auctions"

You mean before the auction actually starts when they enter their RESERVE?

Wondercoin

OneCent

Teletrade should put it big BOLD letters on their website:

ANY BIDDING "ACTION" THAT APPEARS TO BE TAKING PLACE ON ONE OF OUR COINS MAY OR MAY NOT BE AN ILLUSION.

I think that would about cover it. Very few people would actually use the site, but they would be forewarned.

Teletrade is way slanted to the seller not the buyer. Why not just list the reserve or say that the coin has a reserve and your bid has not met it? Most every other on-line auction house that I am aware of does just that!

roadrunner

This is a TT story from the mid to later 1990's before the current regime took over. But the story highlights what kind of shenanigans can go on at internet auctions. And yes, I was bidding on my own coin via a reserve price.

Had a 1905 Japanese 20 sen NGC MS63 consigned. The World Coin catalog listed it as a $25 coin in Mint State. Boy, was I surprised when it got bid up furiously to around $1200. Well low and behold it was "returned" and put up again by TT. I was devastated to see my $1000 profit go up in smoke. Well, not looking to see my newly found gem go "too cheap" the 2nd time around I stupidly put in a Buy Back bid at $795. Guess what? I bought it back at $795 and paid BB fees along with P&H to ship it back. Wonder where all the buyers went (lol)? The "bidding" ended exactly at my buy back (lol).
After smarting for a few months I decided the only option was to consign it once again. This time I put in a BB bid of $200 just to be sure it covered my expenses to date. Guess what? I bought it back once again, this time at exactly $200. Jimminey Cricket! Another BB fee. The coin was sent back to me one more time. After another month or 2 of smarting real bad, I stuck it back in a 3rd time with no reserve. The coin finally sold at around $120.

You can't make up a story like this. My original cost in the coin was about $20 + slab fee of $8. In the end I lost about $80 because of all the BB fees. A classic TT tale. Next time I saw one of the TT key players I asked him how the heck could this happen? He had no explanation (lol).

roadrunner

OneCent

<< <i>"For about the 3rd time, Teletrade allows sellers to bid on their own auctions"

You mean before the auction actually starts when they enter their RESERVE?

Wondercoin >>




Is it not true that the reserve that is entered is incrementally added to current bidding price over the length of the auction. And this is transparent to the novice Teletrade user?!?

OKbustchaser

<< <i>

<< <i>Leo: Again, so what is different between the Teletrade system and, say, Stacks or Bowers? If a coin is reserved for $100,000 in a Stacks or Bowers sale and it gets there via a single bid going against the reserve, what is the difference? >>



For about the 3rd time, Teletrade allows sellers to bid on their own auctions. Does Stacks or Bowers do that? I don't think so. The supply and demand is dictated by two bidders. The seller acting as a bidder doesn't have any interest in the coin other than protecting his reserve, he only wants to sell it.
The actual realtime buyer/bidder wants the coin but only in a supply and demand auction. Making a bidder believe that he is bidding against another bidder is absolutely wrong, any way you want to cut it, it's wrong.


Leo >>



Yes, Stack's and Bowers both allow it.

From Bower's terms and agreement...



<< <i>Bidders may include consignors who may bid and purchase lot(s) in the Auction Sale consigned by the consignor or by other consignors pursuant to their consignment agreement with Bowers ("Consignor" or "Consignors"). A Consignor that bids on their own lots in the Auction Sale may pay a different fee than the buyer's premium charged to all other buyers. Bowers reserves the right to include in any auction sale its own material as well as material from affiliated or related companies, principals, officers or employees. >>



From Stack's...



<< <i>The auctioneer and cataloguer, Stack’s, reserves the right to include its own material in any auction sale. The auctioneer may have direct or indirect interests in these, and other items (other than its commission), and may collect a minimum price in addition to the selling commission. This paragraph shall be deemed a part of the description of all lots contained in the catalogue. The catalogue shall also be deemed a part of any invoice issued by the auctioneer. The auctioneer may make loans or advances to consignors and/or prospective purchasers. The Consignor may be permitted to bid on his, her or their own articles and to buy them back at the sale. Any Buyer who bids on or purchases their own goods is required to pay for them, in full, as the terms of sale provide for together with the full buyer’s commission, and any other applicable surcharges, postage, handling, insurance fees and taxes, without rebate of any kind whatsoever, unless provided for otherwise by contract with the auctioneer. >>



For that matter, so does Heritage...



<< <i>Notice of the consignor’s liberty to place bids on his lots in the Auction is hereby made in accordance with Article 2 of the Texas Business and Commercial Code. A “Minimum Bid” is an amount below which the lot will not sell. THE CONSIGNOR OF PROPERTY MAY PLACE
WRITTEN ”Minimum Bids” ON HIS LOTS IN ADVANCE OF THE AUCTION; ON SUCH LOTS, IF THE HAMMER PRICE DOES NOT MEET THE “Minimum Bid”, THE CONSIGNOR MAY PAY A REDUCED COMMISSION ON THOSE LOTS. ”Minimum Bids” are generally posted online several days prior to the Auction closing. For any successful bid placed by a consignor on his Property on the Auction floor, or by any means during the live session, or after the ”Minimum Bid” for an Auction have been posted, we will require the consignor to
pay full Buyer’s Premium and Seller’s Commissions on such lot. >>



So does any other major auction company I have even heard of.

wondercoin

Onecent: As OKbustchaser just showed, bids are routinely raised at most auction houses where a bidder may actually be bidding against a reserve - including live floor bidding action where bidders are purely bidding against a reserve. In short, it happens all the time. I believe it usually takes Teletrade up until about 7:00 p.m. -8:00 p.m. or so EST to have a reserve fully entered in the computer system and showing on line. If one wants to ensure a bid that is being placed does not get raised merely by a reserve bid, why not just wait until 8:00 p.m. EST to bid (an easy way to be fairly certain of this I believe)? If one wants to ensure the bid they place (even in the last minutes) is not topping a reserve bid, my simple point is a bidder will generally not know that for sure either at Teletrade or the majority of any other major auction companies out there. Nothing unusual about Teletrade in this regard.

Wondercoin