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1790 Silver Rider (Netherlands/Zeeland ducaton)- fake, or just harshly cleaned?
lordmarcovan
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Just got this in a swap with a forum member.
He mentioned that he was not 100% convinced of its authenticity, but he couldn't name anything specific that made him think it was fake, either.
Certainly it has that "fakey" sort of look because it got polished rather heavily. Perhaps it is a sea-salvaged piece- they sometimes have that look.
I don't know. Like him, I cannot say one way or the other. I lean towards believing it to be an authentic piece, just a bit too shiny, that's all.
Does anybody handle these enough to spot any red flags, or to pronounce this one kosher, despite the cleaning?
The previous owner says the weight checked out OK. I weighed it on my own scale and came out with 33.94 grams, which is actually a tiny bit overweight compared to what Krause says (32.78 g). I don't know how wide the tolerances were, or how accurate our scales are, either, for that matter.
Edit to add: he got 30.7 g on his scale. I get 32 g on my less accurate postal scale. Aargh! They're all fairly close to the published weight in Krause, though.
Hmm. His scale weighs lighter than mine. Maybe I should buy some more bulk silver lots from him, huh?
He mentioned that he was not 100% convinced of its authenticity, but he couldn't name anything specific that made him think it was fake, either.
Certainly it has that "fakey" sort of look because it got polished rather heavily. Perhaps it is a sea-salvaged piece- they sometimes have that look.
I don't know. Like him, I cannot say one way or the other. I lean towards believing it to be an authentic piece, just a bit too shiny, that's all.
Does anybody handle these enough to spot any red flags, or to pronounce this one kosher, despite the cleaning?
The previous owner says the weight checked out OK. I weighed it on my own scale and came out with 33.94 grams, which is actually a tiny bit overweight compared to what Krause says (32.78 g). I don't know how wide the tolerances were, or how accurate our scales are, either, for that matter.
Edit to add: he got 30.7 g on his scale. I get 32 g on my less accurate postal scale. Aargh! They're all fairly close to the published weight in Krause, though.
Hmm. His scale weighs lighter than mine. Maybe I should buy some more bulk silver lots from him, huh?
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www.brunkauctions.com
That one has slightly mushy letters, too, which were one thing that concerned me about my piece, particularly the date.
However, my piece has some apparent uneven areas in the strike, causing missing or weak lettering, which is plus sign for authenticity, I suppose. Note that the same area around the end of the word NOVA is weakly struck on both my piece and the example you posted.
It looks an awful lot like a cast piece but a cast piece might not be that close to the proper weight, and if somebody cast this, they did a good job on reeding the edge. A sea-salvaged piece might also get that cast, overpolished look- I have seen that before. And I know there was a ship full of Silver Riders and/or Lion Daalders that got salvaged somewhere in the south Pacific (maybe around Australia somewhere), but I can't remember when it sank- it might have been a 17th century ship.
Does anybody else notice anything unusual about this coin? This isn't a trick question or a test- I really am wondering.
go directly across the coin from this same point (180 degrees---drawing on a bit of Blakesley's theory; just not on a clip) and you will see a softness in the bottom portion of that lettering as well on both (ex: BEL)
www.brunkauctions.com
www.brunkauctions.com
On Rob's coin, do the details (such as the sword, top of helmet) look a little thinner? Could be the pic having been taken at a slight angle I guess. That is all I notice except for slight roughness on the obverse, that sometimes raises my suspicion.
As to the surfaces, they kind of do look like a cast piece might, but that's been said already. I do not see any obvious bubbling or "warts" or anything like that. It's got some stuff that put up small red flags in the previous owner's eyes, which were brought to my attention (otherwise I might have missed them and assumed it was just an overshiny coin).
However, it just passed the "ring test". Not too many cast coins would do that, right? I just flipped it with my thumbnail and it rang like a bell, or like any big silver coin should.
<< <i>go directly across the coin from this same point (180 degrees---drawing on a bit of Blakesley's theory; just not on a clip) and you will see a softness in the bottom portion of that lettering as well on both (ex: BEL) >>
The bottoms of BE in BEL are a bit softer than the rest of the letters, although overall they are not as weak as the A in NOVA and the following letters.
Another thing- if one were going to the trouble of faking one of these, you'd think they'd have gone with one of the more expensive earlier dates instead of a common later date in the series. But I suppose that logic crumbles slightly when you consider the Chinese counterfeiters, who have been known to produce "1901" Silver Eagles and "1796" Trade dollars.
If it is counterfeit, I would think that it is contemporary. JMHO.
Based on the picture, I can't add anything meaningful.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Todd
This is a coin I have ... different province but may help evaluate because I think pics are a little better.
It has been authenticated and graded by NGC AU50
SE92-that's a handsome piece, for sure. In the pictures of authentic specimens I've seen, they all look far better than this piece. But again, they're mostly higher grade and if this one were sea-salvaged, it would explain the overpolished, somewhat fake look it has. It doesn't hold much of a candle to pieces like yours, for certain. But it was worth an impulse buy, I figured, and hopefully will be a fun contest prize for folks playin' in my "time machine" game over on the Liteside.
I am now the proud owner of the 1790 Ducaton, winning it in a contest sponsored by LordMarcovan. I have PM’ed him that I have received it and to thank him once again.
First of all, this coin is a bit larger than a Morgan/Peace dollar and is very hefty weight wise, it just feels like you are holding a real coin, cool to the touch and does not have that slippery feel to the surfaces.
However, a close examination of the surfaces reveals a different story. I have a ship wreck effect Reale coin that shows just what salt water can do to a silver coin, some of the defects on the Ducaton mimic those traits, but other counterfeit markers cancel those out.
The pitting I noticed on the surfaces maybe from salt water corrosion or they may have occurred from air bubbles from a cast. I did notice some globs of metal in the recesses of the lettering, a tell tale sign that this is a cast copy of an original coin. This accumulation of excess metal would not appear on a screw press with coin dies unless the dies rusted, pitted and then were cleaned resulting in raised metal.
There is a significant hump of metal inside the “O” of MON:NOVA just above the Silver Riders helmeted head. Also, there are some incuse reeding marks just above the horses tail. If these marks were on a host coin, these minute areas would then be raised on the cast copy. Of course, these bag marks could have been added after casting to indicate reality.
Lots of detail seems to be missing on the raised surfaces of this Ducaton but you have to think about how a coin intended for circulation was made in 1790, much to be desired, but the minters still captured the intended details of their kingdom. What I did notice on the date side, the lion inside the shield area is holding a sword. In other images I seen on-line, the tip of the sword did not blend in with the shield line, it was separated.
The edge is extremely well done, but in some of the recesses you can see tool marks that have the appearance of longitudinal of file marks? I’m not quite sure what to make of this because I do not exactly know how this procedure was accomplished, but the castation of a coin edge does not leave these kind of marks.
My conclusion: There is a slight possibility that this may be a ship wreck effected silver coin. Electrolysis to remove concretions or build up on the surface of silver coins that have been submerged in sea water for hundreds of years can be detrimental to the surfaces. This coin has been polished, but polished to remove or improve what?
I do feel if real, this coin was NOT fresh from a screw press and then sent into circulation, it‘s been on some type of detour. For the diameter and thickness, it just does not have the look of a moderately circulated silver coin.
Then there’s the possibility that this coin is a completely bogus cast counterfeit of a 1790 Netherlands Ducaton. But why? If this coin is a cast copy, it has to be a contemporary forgery and not a recent reproduction which adds to it’s coolness level.
I’m leaning to it being counterfeit, but willing to accept anything that points it the opposite way.
Thanks LordM for the opportunity to allow me to explore more of the Darkside.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Then there’s the possibility that this coin is a completely bogus cast counterfeit of a 1790 Netherlands Ducaton. But why? If this coin is a cast copy, it has to be a contemporary forgery and not a recent reproduction which adds to it’s coolness level. >>
Hey, a contemporary fake would be cool.
I'm glad the person who won it in my giveaway found it interesting enough to do some homework on.
I figured by my giving it away, there'd be no potential downside to the new owner- at the very least, he won a big piece of silver. But an intriguing one.
PS- note my earlier comment about my performing the very unscientific "ring test" on it. (The ol' thumbnail flip in the air, that is.) Rang like a bell. Not sure if a cast piece would do that or not? I've been told not, in the past. But then, I don't know why not.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
This is the only ducaton I ever had, though. I didn't even think about the die rotation?
What are they supposed to be, O Wise Darksiders? Coin alignment, or medal alignment?