Being a nice guy... or was I just a plain old FOOL? There's a lesson here... somewhere!
SilverHaze
Posts: 509
A PCGS forum member writes to me a few days before my 5 [PCGS Saint] auctions end...
Email #1 :
<< <i>Hi Dave, It's B@#$%y again. Hey, what's you best price for all five Saints if I pay with Paypal? Your prices are pretty good except for the '23 in PCGS 64. You're about $500 above what I can get on Heritage. I don't like to use them and would rather buy from a private entity. I just got through putting together a complete set of Indian quarter eagles (including the '11-D) all in PCGS MS62, a US Civil War-era gold and CSA half (Scott Token and Restrike) set and a UHR 2009 $20. I have an affinity for Saints and have bought and sold many $20's over the past 7 years. I'd like to sock a few reasonably-priced Saints away but need to pay with a Paypal credit card. Please let me know what you think. Thanks and take care, >>
Reply:
<< <i>Hi B@#$%y! Considering my overall initial investment, the fees involved etc., I have the opening bids as low as I can possibly afford to have them and still break even. If you buy all (5) I would be willing to shave a little, but honestly... I can't shave much. I honestly don't have any experience with "Paypal" credit cards but then again, I would imagine they're like any other credit card, right? I can only ship to "confirmed" [Paypal] shipping addresses because of their buyer/seller "protection" policys. The very best I could do for all (5) would be $9,825.00 and I'll take care of the shipping & insurance costs. Just keep an eye on them and if nobody bids the last few minutes and you win all (5), I'll make a "discount adjustment" on the invoice when the auctions are over so your total due will be $9825.00 (that's nearly a $200 discount). If you don't win all 5 I'll still work out something! If you aren't interested, I understand, if you have questions email me. >>
Email #2:
<< <i>Hi, Thanks for your offer on the 5 Saints. I'm watching all five coins and will let you know what I'll do at the end of the auction. >>
ME (a day after thinking about our deal):
<< <i>Hello Again B@#$%y! I'm not changing my offer by any means, but I've been thinking about what I told you in regard to the Saints, and (to avoid any possible confusion down the road) I want to be absolutely sure we're on the same page. I said I needed as much as I could possibly get for them and in the same breath I said you could have them for $9825.00. I want to be clear that $9825.00 is what I'd be willing to sell them to you for ... as long as the auctions end at their current price, I didn't mean that $9825.00 was firm no matter what they ended up selling for as long as you were the winner. I'm sure you probably already knew that, but I just wanted to make sure we understand each other. I'd stop the auctions now and sell them to you for that amount but as I said before, I'm in somewhat of a bind and I'd really like to get as much as I can get for them. A sincere THANK YOU for your understanding! Proper communication is vital and whether you decide to bid or not, I wanted to MAKE SURE we both were on the same page, thanks again B@#$%y, enjoy your night! Kind Regards, Dave >>
HIM:
<< <i>Hi Dave, I understand that the $9825 (shipping and insurance included) price is valid provided that there are no higher offers for the coins. I'm watching all five Saints on eBay and will make my decision at the end of the auction. I think we're on the same page. Good luck with the sale, B@#$%y >>
Response from him after the auction:
<< <i>Hi Dave, I was the winning bidder on all five coins. The total came to $10,316.94. Please let me know how you will discount the purchase as per our agreement. As soon as you do so I will pay for the Saints with Paypal. >>
ME:
<< <i>Hi B@#$%y! I just arrived home from work ... sorry for the wait! The coins closed $491.94 above our initial deal of $9825.00. I'll split that $491.94 (= $245.97) and add it to the initial offer of $9825.00 and pay for shipping. Your total due is $10,070.97 for a total discount of $245.97. Sound Fair? >>
Him:
<< <i>Yeah, there was a lot of interest in your coins. The 1928 PCGS 65 was highly sought after. I think it went for more than the original "buy it now." Go ahead and send me the two invoices that total $10,070.97. As soon as I receive them I will pay you with paypal. >>
Him:
<< <i>I tried using my credit card that I added to my paypal account but was unable to do so. Please let me know how I can get around this so I can pay you. >>
ME:
<< <i>Hi B@#$%y! Did Paypal give a reason why the card wouldn't work? Maybe you need to call the credit card customer service number on your card and tell them you're trying to make a purchase and actually authorize it over the phone? Is it a Paypal credit card? If it is, you should call Paypal customer service and find out what to do. I honestly don't know what to tell you. I could try and send two more money requests of $5000.00 and $5070.98 and see if that works? Maybe the one for $9999.99 was too much ??? Let's do that... I'll send two more with the lower amounts and we'll see if that works? If it doesn't work, you'll have to try something else. I'll go to my Paypal account and cancel the first two request and send two new ones for the smaller amounts. It'll take a few minutes so ... >>
HIM:
<< <i>Hi Dave, I authorized a $20,000 balance transfer from my credit card to my checking account. I have to pay an $800 transfer fee but the interest rate is only 1.99% through March of next year. Once that goes through I will pay for the five Saints. I called Paypal and they wouldn't authorize the credit card payment. I also tried to get a credit line increase with my eBay credit card but that wouldn't go through either. I will use my checking account to pay for your coins.The bank told me it would take a few days for the funds to show up in my checking account. If this is acceptable to you please let me know. It's too bad you can't take my credit card number directly. It would have saved me $400. >>
ME:
<< <i>I'm sorry B@#$%y, I have no way to take credit cards. I'm just a regular "40 hours-a-week" guy who collects a few coins. << (here's where I screwed the pooch) >> It's totally up to you, but if you'd prefer, I'm willing to cancel the transactions and re-list the coins next month. If we both agreed, I'd get all my fees back ($180.06 from ebay and $299.49 from Paypal for a total of $479.55) and it would be like nothing ever took place, and you wouldn't have to go into enormous debt! I don't know your situation but I sure hate to see you have to put such a large amount of money on a credit card. I've been there and done that and I'm STILL paying for my mistakes today! That's one of the reasons I'm having to sell these coins... to pay my bills! As I said, I don't have a problem with canceling the sales if that's what you'd like to do. I'll leave that up to you. Just keep me posted. Heck, I understand, and I'm not a bad guy so no worries on the feedback or anything like that. Just let me know what you'd like to do AFTER you think about it, and as I said, I understand... and it's not like the coins won't sell, ya know what I mean? Take care, think about it, and have a good weekend! Dave >>
HIM:
<< <i>If you can get your fees back and relist the coins it might be better for both of us. I hate to back out on a deal and I will lose $800 in the process. That's OK. >>
ME:
<< <i>Not a problem B@#$%^y, I understand, and I'm sorry you had to lose $800. I'll try and get these transactions canceled ASAP. If I need your help (and I may) I'll email you. Take care and have a good night! >>
ME (after a lengthy wait):
<< <i>I've canceled them but I don't think I'll get any fees back until you confirm the cancelations. From what I can tell, I think ebay should have sent you automatic emails on each coin as I canceled them. Email me if you need to, thanks again! >>
ME after a long wait:
<< <i>I've canceled all 5 transactions last night but you must respond/agree to them before I can recoup my fees, you should have gotten something from ebay by now in regard to canceling them, thanks! >>
HIM after several days of no response:
<< <i>I'm sorry there was a delay in canceling the sale of the 5 Saints. There was a problem with the eBay message board. << (ya right) >> It worked today (7/1) so I canceled the sale. You should be able to recoup your fees. If you have any further problems please contact me. Thanks and good luck with the resale. I apologize for the inconvenience. >>
ME:
<< <i>Hi B@#$%y! Just wanted to say thanks for responding to the cancelations, I've been credited for my fees. I also want to say that I wish you the best of luck, and want you to know that (even though things didn't work out this time) you're welcome to check back anytime. I've usually got something up for auction, and it's never junk so feel free to bid, I can tell by your feedback that you're alright, I also understand how things can happen so chalk it up and move on. You take care and have a safe July 4th weekend, and my best to you and your family! Kind Regards, Dave >>
Now I REALIZE I'm a fool.. I already know that, so you guys go easy on me! What bothers me is the fact that I really thought I was doing this guy a solid by letting him off the hook. Never even got a "THANK YOU!" (wait... I take that back, he DID say "thanks, and good luck with the resale") ... Come to find out, (this is what rubbed me the wrong way) he has since purchased several more coins AFTER our experience, one was around $8,000.00. I guess he wasn't in a "financial bind" after all (but THAT'S WHAT I GET FOR ASSUMING)! I realize he never stated that he WAS in a bind, and I DID get my fees back. I DID relist a couple of the coins (one of which I took a $400.00 loss from HIS winning bid), but what bothers me is the fact that I (casually and very nicely) emailed him after I discovered his latest purchases and told him that since his situation has obviously changed, I wanted to let him know that some of the coins were still available, IF he was still interested.
Hadn't heard a word from him since... AND HE'S STILL BUYING!
Is there a lesson here somewhere about nice guys finishing last?
I thought forum members were (for the most part) OK to deal with ... I guess that's what I get for thinking!
Email #1 :
<< <i>Hi Dave, It's B@#$%y again. Hey, what's you best price for all five Saints if I pay with Paypal? Your prices are pretty good except for the '23 in PCGS 64. You're about $500 above what I can get on Heritage. I don't like to use them and would rather buy from a private entity. I just got through putting together a complete set of Indian quarter eagles (including the '11-D) all in PCGS MS62, a US Civil War-era gold and CSA half (Scott Token and Restrike) set and a UHR 2009 $20. I have an affinity for Saints and have bought and sold many $20's over the past 7 years. I'd like to sock a few reasonably-priced Saints away but need to pay with a Paypal credit card. Please let me know what you think. Thanks and take care, >>
Reply:
<< <i>Hi B@#$%y! Considering my overall initial investment, the fees involved etc., I have the opening bids as low as I can possibly afford to have them and still break even. If you buy all (5) I would be willing to shave a little, but honestly... I can't shave much. I honestly don't have any experience with "Paypal" credit cards but then again, I would imagine they're like any other credit card, right? I can only ship to "confirmed" [Paypal] shipping addresses because of their buyer/seller "protection" policys. The very best I could do for all (5) would be $9,825.00 and I'll take care of the shipping & insurance costs. Just keep an eye on them and if nobody bids the last few minutes and you win all (5), I'll make a "discount adjustment" on the invoice when the auctions are over so your total due will be $9825.00 (that's nearly a $200 discount). If you don't win all 5 I'll still work out something! If you aren't interested, I understand, if you have questions email me. >>
Email #2:
<< <i>Hi, Thanks for your offer on the 5 Saints. I'm watching all five coins and will let you know what I'll do at the end of the auction. >>
ME (a day after thinking about our deal):
<< <i>Hello Again B@#$%y! I'm not changing my offer by any means, but I've been thinking about what I told you in regard to the Saints, and (to avoid any possible confusion down the road) I want to be absolutely sure we're on the same page. I said I needed as much as I could possibly get for them and in the same breath I said you could have them for $9825.00. I want to be clear that $9825.00 is what I'd be willing to sell them to you for ... as long as the auctions end at their current price, I didn't mean that $9825.00 was firm no matter what they ended up selling for as long as you were the winner. I'm sure you probably already knew that, but I just wanted to make sure we understand each other. I'd stop the auctions now and sell them to you for that amount but as I said before, I'm in somewhat of a bind and I'd really like to get as much as I can get for them. A sincere THANK YOU for your understanding! Proper communication is vital and whether you decide to bid or not, I wanted to MAKE SURE we both were on the same page, thanks again B@#$%y, enjoy your night! Kind Regards, Dave >>
HIM:
<< <i>Hi Dave, I understand that the $9825 (shipping and insurance included) price is valid provided that there are no higher offers for the coins. I'm watching all five Saints on eBay and will make my decision at the end of the auction. I think we're on the same page. Good luck with the sale, B@#$%y >>
Response from him after the auction:
<< <i>Hi Dave, I was the winning bidder on all five coins. The total came to $10,316.94. Please let me know how you will discount the purchase as per our agreement. As soon as you do so I will pay for the Saints with Paypal. >>
ME:
<< <i>Hi B@#$%y! I just arrived home from work ... sorry for the wait! The coins closed $491.94 above our initial deal of $9825.00. I'll split that $491.94 (= $245.97) and add it to the initial offer of $9825.00 and pay for shipping. Your total due is $10,070.97 for a total discount of $245.97. Sound Fair? >>
Him:
<< <i>Yeah, there was a lot of interest in your coins. The 1928 PCGS 65 was highly sought after. I think it went for more than the original "buy it now." Go ahead and send me the two invoices that total $10,070.97. As soon as I receive them I will pay you with paypal. >>
Him:
<< <i>I tried using my credit card that I added to my paypal account but was unable to do so. Please let me know how I can get around this so I can pay you. >>
ME:
<< <i>Hi B@#$%y! Did Paypal give a reason why the card wouldn't work? Maybe you need to call the credit card customer service number on your card and tell them you're trying to make a purchase and actually authorize it over the phone? Is it a Paypal credit card? If it is, you should call Paypal customer service and find out what to do. I honestly don't know what to tell you. I could try and send two more money requests of $5000.00 and $5070.98 and see if that works? Maybe the one for $9999.99 was too much ??? Let's do that... I'll send two more with the lower amounts and we'll see if that works? If it doesn't work, you'll have to try something else. I'll go to my Paypal account and cancel the first two request and send two new ones for the smaller amounts. It'll take a few minutes so ... >>
HIM:
<< <i>Hi Dave, I authorized a $20,000 balance transfer from my credit card to my checking account. I have to pay an $800 transfer fee but the interest rate is only 1.99% through March of next year. Once that goes through I will pay for the five Saints. I called Paypal and they wouldn't authorize the credit card payment. I also tried to get a credit line increase with my eBay credit card but that wouldn't go through either. I will use my checking account to pay for your coins.The bank told me it would take a few days for the funds to show up in my checking account. If this is acceptable to you please let me know. It's too bad you can't take my credit card number directly. It would have saved me $400. >>
ME:
<< <i>I'm sorry B@#$%y, I have no way to take credit cards. I'm just a regular "40 hours-a-week" guy who collects a few coins. << (here's where I screwed the pooch) >> It's totally up to you, but if you'd prefer, I'm willing to cancel the transactions and re-list the coins next month. If we both agreed, I'd get all my fees back ($180.06 from ebay and $299.49 from Paypal for a total of $479.55) and it would be like nothing ever took place, and you wouldn't have to go into enormous debt! I don't know your situation but I sure hate to see you have to put such a large amount of money on a credit card. I've been there and done that and I'm STILL paying for my mistakes today! That's one of the reasons I'm having to sell these coins... to pay my bills! As I said, I don't have a problem with canceling the sales if that's what you'd like to do. I'll leave that up to you. Just keep me posted. Heck, I understand, and I'm not a bad guy so no worries on the feedback or anything like that. Just let me know what you'd like to do AFTER you think about it, and as I said, I understand... and it's not like the coins won't sell, ya know what I mean? Take care, think about it, and have a good weekend! Dave >>
HIM:
<< <i>If you can get your fees back and relist the coins it might be better for both of us. I hate to back out on a deal and I will lose $800 in the process. That's OK. >>
ME:
<< <i>Not a problem B@#$%^y, I understand, and I'm sorry you had to lose $800. I'll try and get these transactions canceled ASAP. If I need your help (and I may) I'll email you. Take care and have a good night! >>
ME (after a lengthy wait):
<< <i>I've canceled them but I don't think I'll get any fees back until you confirm the cancelations. From what I can tell, I think ebay should have sent you automatic emails on each coin as I canceled them. Email me if you need to, thanks again! >>
ME after a long wait:
<< <i>I've canceled all 5 transactions last night but you must respond/agree to them before I can recoup my fees, you should have gotten something from ebay by now in regard to canceling them, thanks! >>
HIM after several days of no response:
<< <i>I'm sorry there was a delay in canceling the sale of the 5 Saints. There was a problem with the eBay message board. << (ya right) >> It worked today (7/1) so I canceled the sale. You should be able to recoup your fees. If you have any further problems please contact me. Thanks and good luck with the resale. I apologize for the inconvenience. >>
ME:
<< <i>Hi B@#$%y! Just wanted to say thanks for responding to the cancelations, I've been credited for my fees. I also want to say that I wish you the best of luck, and want you to know that (even though things didn't work out this time) you're welcome to check back anytime. I've usually got something up for auction, and it's never junk so feel free to bid, I can tell by your feedback that you're alright, I also understand how things can happen so chalk it up and move on. You take care and have a safe July 4th weekend, and my best to you and your family! Kind Regards, Dave >>
Now I REALIZE I'm a fool.. I already know that, so you guys go easy on me! What bothers me is the fact that I really thought I was doing this guy a solid by letting him off the hook. Never even got a "THANK YOU!" (wait... I take that back, he DID say "thanks, and good luck with the resale") ... Come to find out, (this is what rubbed me the wrong way) he has since purchased several more coins AFTER our experience, one was around $8,000.00. I guess he wasn't in a "financial bind" after all (but THAT'S WHAT I GET FOR ASSUMING)! I realize he never stated that he WAS in a bind, and I DID get my fees back. I DID relist a couple of the coins (one of which I took a $400.00 loss from HIS winning bid), but what bothers me is the fact that I (casually and very nicely) emailed him after I discovered his latest purchases and told him that since his situation has obviously changed, I wanted to let him know that some of the coins were still available, IF he was still interested.
Hadn't heard a word from him since... AND HE'S STILL BUYING!
Is there a lesson here somewhere about nice guys finishing last?
I thought forum members were (for the most part) OK to deal with ... I guess that's what I get for thinking!
As you grow older, you'll find the only things you regret are the things you didn't do. ~Zachary Scott <>
Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is? ~Frank Scully
Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is? ~Frank Scully
0
Comments
There were red flags flying from the moment he first contacted you.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>I see nothing wrong with the actions of either party. >>
Agreed... but like I said, what "bothered" me most was ME assuming that he was in a bind and finding out later that I was a fool... nobody likes eating crow. I'm mad at myself.
Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is? ~Frank Scully
Agreed... but like I said, what "bothered" me most was ME assuming that he was in a bind and finding out later that I was a fool... nobody likes eating crow. I'm mad at myself.
There is the chance that he found other sellers that were willing to accept CC payments directly.
I wish buyers and sellers I deal with were so good with communication.
Lance.
<< <i>There is the chance that he found other sellers that were willing to accept CC payments directly. >>
Possibly, but he could have at least responded to my last email in regard to the availability of the coins... IF he was as interested [in Saints] as he said. A "Thanks, but no thanks" would have been sufficient. After letting him off of a $10,000.00 obligation he could have been a little more appreciative.
People are all different I guess, not everybody was raised with the same scruples as others.
THANKS MOM & DAD ... wherever you are!
Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is? ~Frank Scully
Plus, you two were able to communicate very well considering all the drama we here about on ebay and lack of open dialog.
Normally, Id say out them,
<< <i>I wish buyers and sellers I deal with were so good with communication. >>
and I'm not even a "powerseller" ... go figure?
Need any Saints?
Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is? ~Frank Scully
<< <i>You could be out $10K or more... All in all, Id be very happy. >>
You're right... and happy I am! "Disappointed" would be a better word...
Why not go out on a limb? Isn't that where the fruit is? ~Frank Scully
I had a guy here kick my tires for weeks on a $50 coin. I ended up giving it to another member here who bought some coins from me. Sorta as a thank you for the easy deal.
Sometimes, the deal isnt suppose to happen, for whatever reason.
I am guessing you could use the $10K now not next month
even your deal you gave him sucked as it lowered your fee
as it has been some time - email him again and ask if he would be willing to buy via PAYPAL for $9800
as his $20K should be in his PAYPAL by now
and you would save on eBay final value fees
if no response, out the guys eBay name so we can all block him
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
I agree. I don't see anything wrong in the end. I personally don't get back to a lot of people simply because their isn't enough time in the day I guess ..... doesn't mean I don't care about the other person. I'm just not good at communicating when I'm tired (which is most of the time)
I'm sure there's a few lessons in your transaction. I've never had an Ebay deal when I was the Seller that worked out to my favor when I made deals outside of the Auction, ( I think anyway) I much prefer to not make any deals as the Seller and let the Auction run. It just complicates matters too much. I prefer making an anonymous sale and just let the money roll in without miscommunications and hard feelings. Although these .99 cent starting prices seem to be reaming me a lot lately. I'm surprised no one has posted one of my sales here as a RIP, lol
If I were spending 10k , I would contact the CCC, and alert them to a large transaction, ya know
"make sure it will process before the actual transaction". JMO.
Maybe it was all BS, he or she never intended on coming through.
One more thing, can't we leave Paypal out of this? Money orders are free @ my bank.
I might have suggested a "certified check" since he obviously had the funds available, just not through Paypal. Payment outside of eBay via certified check is a viable and perfectly legal option. eBay just doesn't advertise it though.
The name is LEE!
BST Transactions: DonnyJf, MrOrganic, Justanothercoinaddict, Fivecents, Slq, Jdimmick,
Robb, Tee135, Ibzman350, Mercfan, Outhaul, Erickso1, Cugamongacoins, Indiananationals, Wayne Herndon
Negative BST Transactions:
I think you should.
Obviously this guy is a major tool and you bent over backwards for him. If he just didnt have the funds to purchase these items it would be one thing. He obviously hasnt lost his job etc and plays wih decent size coins. Probably figured he couldnt make any money on the deal afterwards...
It allegedly cost this person $800 in fees to get a $20k cash advance from their credit card into their checking account?
And they then mention their excellent "1.9%" credit card rate when they just coughed up 4%.
When you are dealing with that much money, I find that banks tend to want it to sit for a few days before it moves.
A PCGS Forum Member...by itself, this means nothing. It is certainly not a guaranteed voucher for a person being on the level. What really matters is past transaction history and references.
Camelot
<< <i><< I see nothing wrong with the actions of either party. >>
Agreed... but like I said, what "bothered" me most was ME assuming that he was in a bind and finding out later that I was a fool... nobody likes eating crow. I'm mad at myself.
There is the chance that he found other sellers that were willing to accept CC payments directly. >>
To know is not to know. Interpretations and conclusions. They might indeed have found a seller with better CC terms. In any case, $400 is not much, on a $10,000 transaction, especially with spot gold jumping up and down every day. If there was deception, it sounds like an awful lot of leg work to get out of overpaying by that slim amount, with no guarantee of that happening. Because of that, I vote that both sides are in the clear--I'm not seeing any clear ethical problems on either side. Best to excuse the other person and move on. There is no way of knowing if there was any lies or deceit involved. If there were, it was a lot of trouble for very little benefit, time spent, and several lies just to get out of a transaction that was close to market value anyway.
Take this secure thought: if there was deception, a seller is better off with a cancelled transaction, than shipping $10,000 worth of coins to a bold liar. The downside and aggravation potential on that scenario is much larger than $400.
the only error I see is the fact that the seller put in a bid he should not of to effect the hammer price , you may of sold them to the under bidder and avoided all the trouble you went through.
you were a bit too nice in my opinion with the accommodation on the price, Hopefully they sell for more when they are re-listed.
<< <i> I DID relist a couple of the coins (one of which I took a $400.00 loss from HIS winning bid)... >>
Instead of relisting, did you try a "second chance" offer to any of the other bidders first?
if he wasn't going to pay.
and you are a nice fool
I think things went wrong when the buyer said this:
<< <i>I tried using my credit card that I added to my paypal account but was unable to do so. Please let me know how I can get around this so I can pay you. >>
It was him who needs to talk to his bank or paypal.
I'm sure it's easier as a seller to sell them all together but would it go smoother if only 2 coins were listed each week? That way the totals are going to be below 5K?